Math Is Fun Forum
  Discussion about math, puzzles, games and fun.   Useful symbols: ÷ × ½ √ ∞ ≠ ≤ ≥ ≈ ⇒ ± ∈ Δ θ ∴ ∑ ∫ • π ƒ -¹ ² ³ °

You are not logged in.

#1 2009-07-10 10:58:12

Ricky
Moderator
Registered: 2005-12-04
Posts: 3,791

Name a species...

...that humans do not possess the ability to kill off.  Thus far the only challenge we have is "insects", but this is not a species.  Rather, it is an entire class.


"In the real world, this would be a problem.  But in mathematics, we can just define a place where this problem doesn't exist.  So we'll go ahead and do that now..."

Offline

#2 2009-07-10 11:25:15

bobbym
Administrator
From: Bumpkinland
Registered: 2009-04-12
Posts: 107,133

Re: Name a species...

Hi Ricky;

Any species that is smaller than us is probably safe.


In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.
If it ain't broke, fix it until it is.
Always satisfy the Prime Directive of getting the right answer above all else.

Offline

#3 2009-07-10 11:37:51

Ricky
Moderator
Registered: 2005-12-04
Posts: 3,791

Re: Name a species...

It would be rather easy to kill off all dogs.

Next?


"In the real world, this would be a problem.  But in mathematics, we can just define a place where this problem doesn't exist.  So we'll go ahead and do that now..."

Offline

#4 2009-07-10 11:39:22

MathsIsFun
Administrator
Registered: 2005-01-21
Posts: 7,631

Re: Name a species...

Mice.


"The physicists defer only to mathematicians, and the mathematicians defer only to God ..."  - Leon M. Lederman

Offline

#5 2009-07-10 12:03:47

bobbym
Administrator
From: Bumpkinland
Registered: 2009-04-12
Posts: 107,133

Re: Name a species...

Rats,killerbee's, E Coli...

Last edited by bobbym (2009-07-10 12:05:10)


In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.
If it ain't broke, fix it until it is.
Always satisfy the Prime Directive of getting the right answer above all else.

Offline

#6 2009-07-10 12:56:52

mathsyperson
Moderator
Registered: 2005-06-22
Posts: 4,900

Re: Name a species...

What about mules? Even if you kill all of them, they can come back.


Why did the vector cross the road?
It wanted to be normal.

Offline

#7 2009-07-10 15:17:44

Ricky
Moderator
Registered: 2005-12-04
Posts: 3,791

Re: Name a species...

mathsyperson wrote:

What about mules? Even if you kill all of them, they can come back.

Uhh, so kill all the donkeys and horses?


"In the real world, this would be a problem.  But in mathematics, we can just define a place where this problem doesn't exist.  So we'll go ahead and do that now..."

Offline

#8 2009-07-10 15:24:08

Ricky
Moderator
Registered: 2005-12-04
Posts: 3,791

Re: Name a species...

If you accept that humans could burn all vegetation, then mice and bees are out.  Indeed, burning all vegetation would (I believe) kill all warm blooded animals, and then E. coli would go as well.


"In the real world, this would be a problem.  But in mathematics, we can just define a place where this problem doesn't exist.  So we'll go ahead and do that now..."

Offline

#9 2009-07-10 15:50:15

MathsIsFun
Administrator
Registered: 2005-01-21
Posts: 7,631

Re: Name a species...

Killing all vegetation could be very hard. Seeds etc may survive to grow again.


"The physicists defer only to mathematicians, and the mathematicians defer only to God ..."  - Leon M. Lederman

Offline

#10 2009-07-10 17:49:57

Tigeree
Member
Registered: 2005-11-19
Posts: 13,883

Re: Name a species...

Rabbits! My God, are they hard to kill! Australia has an infestation of 'em since Settlers came! We've tried everything but they just keep coming back! We tried the virus' but their descendants became immune! Dynamite is also proving no good. So we got foxes over here, but now they're just as bad! They keep stealing everyone's chickens & sheep!


People don't notice whether it's winter or summer when they're happy.
~ Anton Chekhov
Cheer up, emo kid.

Offline

#11 2009-07-10 18:04:56

bobbym
Administrator
From: Bumpkinland
Registered: 2009-04-12
Posts: 107,133

Re: Name a species...

Ricky wrote:

If you accept that humans could burn all vegetation, then mice and bees are out.  Indeed, burning all vegetation would (I believe) kill all warm blooded animals, and then E. coli would go as well.

Pay attention to Tigeree's post. It is a good example of the folly of attempting a mass extinction.

E Coli lives in our own intestines. Killerbees don't need vegetation to survive. Rat populations exceed human ones in US cities. You are refusing to come to a conclusion, that there are many forms of life physically much more robust than man. They were here hundreds of millions of years before we showed up.


In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.
If it ain't broke, fix it until it is.
Always satisfy the Prime Directive of getting the right answer above all else.

Offline

#12 2009-07-10 19:11:21

Tigeree
Member
Registered: 2005-11-19
Posts: 13,883

Re: Name a species...

Truly flattering, bobby, but I don't believe that attempt of mass extinction is folly. Thylacine for instance humans killed all them off. Tasmanian tiger, btw.

Last edited by Tigeree (2009-07-10 19:14:23)


People don't notice whether it's winter or summer when they're happy.
~ Anton Chekhov
Cheer up, emo kid.

Offline

#13 2009-07-10 21:17:52

jimmyR
Member
Registered: 2009-05-29
Posts: 143

Re: Name a species...

Did you guys know that PETA has a Human Voluntary Exctinction
program on its site (or a link to it). Why don't we leave the mice and rabbits alone and go for the gusto.

Offline

#14 2009-07-11 04:42:36

mathsyperson
Moderator
Registered: 2005-06-22
Posts: 4,900

Re: Name a species...

Ricky wrote:
mathsyperson wrote:

What about mules? Even if you kill all of them, they can come back.

Uhh, so kill all the donkeys and horses?

Ohh, OK. I understand the question now.

I'd say that there are certainly some species that could survive being hunted with non-drastic measures, ie. methods that wouldn't also cause extinction of humans.
Tigeree's rabbits could be an example, but I'm sure there are other species that are even better at surviving. Mosquitos or something.

If we don't care what happens to us, we get to use some 'more effective strategies'.
I'm guessing we have enough destructive power to destroy the Earth, but not disintegrate it.
So we'll be able to turn Earth into a bunch of rocky bits for a while, but it'll eventually reform into Earth 2.0.

So that's eliminated all species that need an atmosphere or that can't survive severe heat or radiation. I'd imagine there'd still be some survivors after that though.

How feasible would it be to attach a giant rocket to Earth and launch ourselves into the Sun?


Why did the vector cross the road?
It wanted to be normal.

Offline

#15 2009-07-11 05:21:42

Ricky
Moderator
Registered: 2005-12-04
Posts: 3,791

Re: Name a species...

How feasible would it be to attach a giant rocket to Earth and launch ourselves into the Sun?

This is something I've been thinking about.  It would be much easier to try to move the moon into Earth's gravity well, and then Earth's gravity would accelerate it.  Would that momentum be enough to drastically change Earth's orbit?  The moon is roughly 1/5th of Earth's size, which is obviously no small potatoes.

But alas, I don't think moving the moon is feasible right now, and for some great time to come.

E Coli lives in our own intestines.

I never said we would be around.

Killerbees don't need vegetation to survive.

You're going to have to explain that one.

Rat populations exceed human ones in US cities.

And?

You are refusing to come to a conclusion, that there are many forms of life physically much more robust than man.

That isn't the game we're playing in this thread.

They were here hundreds of millions of years before we showed up.

Irrelevant.


"In the real world, this would be a problem.  But in mathematics, we can just define a place where this problem doesn't exist.  So we'll go ahead and do that now..."

Offline

#16 2009-07-11 09:56:14

bobbym
Administrator
From: Bumpkinland
Registered: 2009-04-12
Posts: 107,133

Re: Name a species...

Ricky wrote:

I never said we would be around.

They would survive without us. Man's demise does not signal the end of creation. We are not the beginning of it or the end. Killerbees nest in dirt they don't require vegetation. They live happily right inside out concrete cities.

Ricky wrote:
bobby wrote:

They were here hundreds of millions of years before we showed up.

Irrelevant.

I couldn't disagree more. It is probabbly the best test of dominance.


Ricky wrote:
bobbym wrote:

Rat populations exceed human ones in US cities.

And?

Just an answer to your point that we could wipe them out. The fact is we can't. They can live on garbage, in rubble. They can feed on almost anything including humans. They are resistant to disease and pesticides. You state that control is marked by the ability to wipe out any other species, we are not capable of that.


In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.
If it ain't broke, fix it until it is.
Always satisfy the Prime Directive of getting the right answer above all else.

Offline

#17 2009-07-11 09:59:50

bobbym
Administrator
From: Bumpkinland
Registered: 2009-04-12
Posts: 107,133

Re: Name a species...

Oh, here is another species we can't wipe out, sharks.


In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.
If it ain't broke, fix it until it is.
Always satisfy the Prime Directive of getting the right answer above all else.

Offline

#18 2009-07-11 11:21:56

Ricky
Moderator
Registered: 2005-12-04
Posts: 3,791

Re: Name a species...

You state that control is marked by the ability to wipe out any other species, we are not capable of that.

I mentioned humans being able to wipe out any other species as a characteristic that no other species on this planet shares.  I realized this was indeed only tangential to dominance, and made a post to this effect.  I then created this thread because it felt like a fun game.  Leave the dominance in the dominance thread, we'll talk about killing things here.

I've replied to the rest of your post that had to do with killing things here, and I replied to the dominance piece in the dominance thread.


E Coli lives in our own intestines.

I never said we would be around.

They would survive without us.

lol  Granted, e coli also live in the intestines of other warm-blooded animals, but they wouldn't be around either.

Killerbees nest in dirt they don't require vegetation.

And pray tell, what exactly do they use for substance?

Oh, here is another species we can't wipe out, sharks.

Endangered Shark Species

Oh, and "shark" is not a species.


"In the real world, this would be a problem.  But in mathematics, we can just define a place where this problem doesn't exist.  So we'll go ahead and do that now..."

Offline

#19 2009-07-11 12:08:20

MathsIsFun
Administrator
Registered: 2005-01-21
Posts: 7,631

Re: Name a species...

Or for that matter, what would it take to wipe out krill?


"The physicists defer only to mathematicians, and the mathematicians defer only to God ..."  - Leon M. Lederman

Offline

#20 2009-07-11 12:13:09

mathsyperson
Moderator
Registered: 2005-06-22
Posts: 4,900

Re: Name a species...

Ricky wrote:

How feasible would it be to attach a giant rocket to Earth and launch ourselves into the Sun?

This is something I've been thinking about.  It would be much easier to try to move the moon into Earth's gravity well, and then Earth's gravity would accelerate it.  Would that momentum be enough to drastically change Earth's orbit?  The moon is roughly 1/5th of Earth's size, which is obviously no small potatoes.

I'm thinking that probably wouldn't work. The Earth and moon are currently orbiting the Sun as a system, and if you caused them to crash into each other they'd still be doing that.

New idea to deal with these ocean-dwellers: how possible would it be to boil the seas?


Why did the vector cross the road?
It wanted to be normal.

Offline

#21 2009-07-11 12:25:29

bobbym
Administrator
From: Bumpkinland
Registered: 2009-04-12
Posts: 107,133

Re: Name a species...

Hi Ricky'

Ricky wrote:

Granted, e coli also live in the intestines of other warm-blooded animals, but they wouldn't be around either.

Bacteria live all over the surface of the earth and in the stratosphere. They can survive without air, at extreme temperatures, in sulfuric acid or radioactive wastes.

Ricky wrote:

And pray tell, what exactly do they use for substance?

Are you saying now that man can eliminate all the organic material that these creatures consume?

Ricky wrote:

Oh, and "shark" is not a species.

Correct! That page only states by mans reckoning that some species of shark are endangered. Lets not forget the Coelacanth.

You still have not suggested any other means other than some Buck Roger's solution to eliminating rabbits, bacteria, rats, roaches, killerbees...

Last edited by bobbym (2009-07-11 20:38:35)


In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.
If it ain't broke, fix it until it is.
Always satisfy the Prime Directive of getting the right answer above all else.

Offline

#22 2009-07-11 16:05:53

MathsIsFun
Administrator
Registered: 2005-01-21
Posts: 7,631

Re: Name a species...

I missed out on a good title:

"Kill Krill"


"The physicists defer only to mathematicians, and the mathematicians defer only to God ..."  - Leon M. Lederman

Offline

#23 2009-07-11 20:18:23

Tigeree
Member
Registered: 2005-11-19
Posts: 13,883

Re: Name a species...

Very good, MIF! lol

jimmyR wrote:

Did you guys know that PETA has a Human Voluntary Exctinction
program on its site (or a link to it). Why don't we leave the mice and rabbits alone and go for the gusto.

Sounds plausible.


People don't notice whether it's winter or summer when they're happy.
~ Anton Chekhov
Cheer up, emo kid.

Offline

#24 2009-07-12 06:56:53

Ricky
Moderator
Registered: 2005-12-04
Posts: 3,791

Re: Name a species...

New idea to deal with these ocean-dwellers: how possible would it be to boil the seas?

Thank you!  Someone is trying to play along...

I did some quick calculations, starting with these assumptions:

Average temperature of the ocean: 4C
Volume of the ocean: 1,260,000,000,000,000,000,000 liters
Specific heat of ocean water: 4.186 J/gram C (note this is the specific heat of pure water)
Average payload of a nuclear weapon: 1000 TJ
Percent efficiency (the amount of heat that actually gets in the water): 20%

It seems like this is a reasonable upper bound, assuming the nukes are evenly distributed across the ocean.  The number I arrive at is 2.530.000.000.000.000 nukes.  Please check my work.


"In the real world, this would be a problem.  But in mathematics, we can just define a place where this problem doesn't exist.  So we'll go ahead and do that now..."

Offline

#25 2009-07-12 07:40:03

Identity
Member
Registered: 2007-04-18
Posts: 934

Re: Name a species...

Yeah, that's exactly what I get. Even raising the temperature by 1 degree would require

nukes, which is ridiculous, seeing as we only have 23000 nukes in the world.

The nuclear winter would be more catastrophic however, it could plunge the whole world into a possible ice age. Humans would likely not survive. But an ice age has occurred before, and those lucky enough to be adapted to it will survive. In particular, I've heard that co.ckroaches are specially adapted to survive nuclear fallout.

I don't know which species would survive, but an ice age has occurred before, and obviously certain species did survive.

I think suicidal bombardment is the 'best' way humans could try to eradicate another species. They would succeed with most species, but not with all.

Last edited by Identity (2009-07-12 07:41:43)

Offline

Board footer

Powered by FluxBB