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#51 2013-03-04 03:05:16

anonimnystefy
Real Member
From: The Foundation
Registered: 2011-05-23
Posts: 15,544

Re: Justice

Who knew it was possible to stray this far away from the topic in just one page!


“Here lies the reader who will never open this book. He is forever dead.

“Taking a new step, uttering a new word, is what people fear most.” ― Fyodor Dostoyevsky, Crime and Punishment

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#52 2013-03-04 04:18:48

bobbym
Administrator
From: Bumpkinland
Registered: 2009-04-12
Posts: 87,237

Re: Justice

Did you find what you were after?

It is difficult to know what the OP wants. I think it is more profitable to discuss justice as men see it.


In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.
Of course that result can be rigorously obtained, but who cares?
Combinatorics is Algebra and Algebra is Combinatorics.

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#53 2013-03-04 09:58:02

noemi
Member
Registered: 2010-01-07
Posts: 2,333

Re: Justice

bobbym wrote:

Hmmm, you really should remove personal comments from your arguments.

you mean like you-not?
why are you mad at me when I say that we don't belong to the same One..I thought that is obvious

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#54 2013-03-04 10:18:44

bobbym
Administrator
From: Bumpkinland
Registered: 2009-04-12
Posts: 87,237

Re: Justice

Mad is for dogs, angry is for people.

What does it matter to you what God you imagine I believe in? The Bible does not give you or any man the right to judge another. "Judge ye not, lest ye be judged."

Is it possible that what you think is not quite correct? I will stop trying to convince you about me, it is futile and futility is tiring.

I have mentioned to you the poem of the elephant and the six wise men. It is very old. You really should have read it.

The first thought that should brought home is that men or any man can not comprehend what God is, what he is like and what he is thinking. We can only see small pieces of him. The poem says it better.

Back to justice, what is it? We have laws, are they just? How can we know what justice is? I think we cannot but we still need laws, just or not.

Last edited by bobbym (2013-03-04 10:26:52)


In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.
Of course that result can be rigorously obtained, but who cares?
Combinatorics is Algebra and Algebra is Combinatorics.

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#55 2013-03-04 11:19:17

noemi
Member
Registered: 2010-01-07
Posts: 2,333

Re: Justice

anonimnystefy wrote:

Well, all things considered, I do agree to some point with the Bible. But there are things, like the God killing almost all of mankind in a flood, that I really do not like.

well... there are things that we can't understand..what would you say to a man that hasn't seen integrals and doesn't see in it nothing but little "snakes"..

anonimnystefy wrote:

Second, I am Christian mostly because I was born into a Christian family. I am still to young to decide which religion, if any, I want to belong to.

when I talk about Christ and the Bible, I'm not talking about the religion...for me a Christian is a spiritually newborn man (John 3:3-7- Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.), and not just the etiquette that you get when a catholic priest sprinkles you with water..

btw.. I think you're not too young..

anonimnystefy wrote:

Third, as I got it, the whole Bible is just a series of stories that were documented by people who believed in God. How do I know that what they've written is truly God's word?

http://www.gotquestions.org/Srpski/Bibl … a-Rec.html

Last edited by noemi (2013-03-04 21:52:12)

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#56 2013-03-04 11:57:57

noemi
Member
Registered: 2010-01-07
Posts: 2,333

Re: Justice

The definition I gave was only related to negative side..actually judgement...
But of course justice has an upside and a down side
Laws are just to the extent that they agree with God's natural and revealed laws.. some of these we all know, others would be disputed...

bobbym..Is it possible that what you think is not quite correct?

Sorry for the "mad" word..you know that my englsih is bad

Last edited by noemi (2013-03-04 12:03:09)

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#57 2013-03-04 12:40:02

bobbym
Administrator
From: Bumpkinland
Registered: 2009-04-12
Posts: 87,237

Re: Justice

bobbym..Is it possible that what you think is not quite correct?

Everybody already knows that. What I wished was that some people suspected that about themselves too. I ain't the only wrong person in the world. You can not blame me totally for this mess.

Laws are just to the extent that they agree with God's natural and revealed laws

You imply possibly that some laws have not been revealed to us? That we are still learning? I agree, Maybe the next time they decide to write a new book they might have to have a revised edition. Or maybe even add some chapters. Maybe take some out. They have done it before.

It is obvious that although I am not any better than some guy living 2000 years ago, I am not a goat herder and he was not a computer programmer. Stoning adulterers is no longer possible, over here we throw bricks. Stones are protected by environmental laws.

Last edited by bobbym (2013-03-04 21:42:10)


In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.
Of course that result can be rigorously obtained, but who cares?
Combinatorics is Algebra and Algebra is Combinatorics.

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#58 2013-03-04 21:29:35

noemi
Member
Registered: 2010-01-07
Posts: 2,333

Re: Justice

lol.. so your conclusion is that I say to stone everyone who is wrong?

of course that I am wrong many times.. but concerning this things that I am saying (unfortunately with my poor english vocabulary)..if this things are wrong then all heaven and hell (according to bible) can't make sense and the whole bible must be a lie then..

Last edited by noemi (2013-03-04 21:41:14)

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#59 2013-03-04 21:54:32

bobbym
Administrator
From: Bumpkinland
Registered: 2009-04-12
Posts: 87,237

Re: Justice

Unless I am very wrong it was ancient Jewish law to stone people. This is the law of the Old Testament. I do not see what God has to do with any of this. It seems to me to be a civil matter what punishment is handed out for some crime. Some states have the death penalty, if you take a life yours will be taken. Other states do not.


In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.
Of course that result can be rigorously obtained, but who cares?
Combinatorics is Algebra and Algebra is Combinatorics.

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#60 2013-03-04 22:00:53

noemi
Member
Registered: 2010-01-07
Posts: 2,333

Re: Justice

Well I believe there is God behind Old Testament..but I know it's difficult to understand it.. I couldn't understand it before I understood New Testament completely...

Last edited by noemi (2013-03-04 22:03:41)

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#61 2013-03-04 22:06:28

bobbym
Administrator
From: Bumpkinland
Registered: 2009-04-12
Posts: 87,237

Re: Justice

That is fine but what does that have to do with the notion of justice?


In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.
Of course that result can be rigorously obtained, but who cares?
Combinatorics is Algebra and Algebra is Combinatorics.

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#62 2013-03-04 22:09:45

noemi
Member
Registered: 2010-01-07
Posts: 2,333

Re: Justice

well I see much connection.. but perhaps my clumsy expression is not showing it properly smile
God is just.. and He determines what is just what not..that's all I'm saying

Last edited by noemi (2013-03-04 22:14:25)

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#63 2013-03-04 22:15:35

bobbym
Administrator
From: Bumpkinland
Registered: 2009-04-12
Posts: 87,237

Re: Justice

I remember an old fellow I knew when I was young. He became ill and prayed to God to save him. "God," he said, "if you make me well I will sell my horse for 1 dollar." Sure enough he got better, now he had to honor his promise so being cunning he sat down and thought about it. He finally came up with selling his horse for 1 dollar but the saddle for 200 dollars.


In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.
Of course that result can be rigorously obtained, but who cares?
Combinatorics is Algebra and Algebra is Combinatorics.

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#64 2013-03-04 22:21:18

noemi
Member
Registered: 2010-01-07
Posts: 2,333

Re: Justice

hmm.. funny story, but you can't fool God
should you be sleeping now bobbymmm?

Last edited by noemi (2013-03-04 22:22:40)

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#65 2013-03-04 22:24:33

bobbym
Administrator
From: Bumpkinland
Registered: 2009-04-12
Posts: 87,237

Re: Justice

He did not, according to him he had not violated the ancient laws. Pappym agreed with that when I told him I thought he should be stoned, sorry, bricked.


In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.
Of course that result can be rigorously obtained, but who cares?
Combinatorics is Algebra and Algebra is Combinatorics.

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#66 2013-03-04 22:32:36

noemi
Member
Registered: 2010-01-07
Posts: 2,333

Re: Justice

Acts 5:1-11
But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,

2 And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet.

3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?

4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.

5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.

6 And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him.

7 And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in.

8 And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much.

9 Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out.

10 Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband.

11 And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things.






Genesis 4
3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the Lord.

4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the Lord had respect unto Abel and to his offering:

5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.

6 And the Lord said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?

7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

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#67 2013-03-04 22:40:31

bobbym
Administrator
From: Bumpkinland
Registered: 2009-04-12
Posts: 87,237

Re: Justice

Those two examples do not apply here. He kept his word. No one was cheated. Let's assume he committed some crime, we immediately see the difference between the old testament God and the modern one.

This man did not fall down dead. He lived to be very old and did much good for the working man. So either the old testament deity was meaner than the present deity or they are not the same being.


In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.
Of course that result can be rigorously obtained, but who cares?
Combinatorics is Algebra and Algebra is Combinatorics.

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#68 2013-03-04 22:47:38

noemi
Member
Registered: 2010-01-07
Posts: 2,333

Re: Justice

your story is about sacrifice... he didn't please God by doing that.. there will be different rewards in Heaven (and that he lived long is not a argument for anything..many bad sinners live long)
Ananias and Sapphira lived in New Testament time- time of mercy..Abel and Cain in Old.. (see the difference?)

Last edited by noemi (2013-03-04 22:51:50)

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#69 2013-03-04 22:54:11

bobbym
Administrator
From: Bumpkinland
Registered: 2009-04-12
Posts: 87,237

Re: Justice

Nope, I do not. How do you know whether he was pleased or not. You think that he is like me or you, he is not. There is a ton of wrongdoing on the earth everyday, he tolerates it and obviously forgives it.


In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.
Of course that result can be rigorously obtained, but who cares?
Combinatorics is Algebra and Algebra is Combinatorics.

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#70 2013-03-04 23:03:29

noemi
Member
Registered: 2010-01-07
Posts: 2,333

Re: Justice

he didn't please Him like those two examples... he sacrificed but not completely ...
if God let sinners to live doesn't mean that He tolerates and forgives! Today is the time of mercy..He is still waiting for souls to repent (those who repent He will forgive)..but there will not be many who will do it.. there exists a moment where He will close the doors
the day of God's Judgement is yet to come..

Last edited by noemi (2013-03-04 23:04:38)

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#71 2013-03-04 23:05:44

bobbym
Administrator
From: Bumpkinland
Registered: 2009-04-12
Posts: 87,237

Re: Justice

Maybe he is going to wait a billion years, after all he does not have the same concept of time we do. No one knows when he will close the doors or even if he will close them, hence the eastern way!


In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.
Of course that result can be rigorously obtained, but who cares?
Combinatorics is Algebra and Algebra is Combinatorics.

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#72 2013-03-04 23:10:15

noemi
Member
Registered: 2010-01-07
Posts: 2,333

Re: Justice

Bible says that there is the time..no one knows it except Him, but there is time... and be awake and prepared...otherwise all those warnings would be unnecessary

go to bed bobbym.. smile

Last edited by noemi (2013-03-04 23:11:42)

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#73 2013-03-04 23:12:06

bobbym
Administrator
From: Bumpkinland
Registered: 2009-04-12
Posts: 87,237

Re: Justice

There maybe a time but it may be millions of years from now. Maybe he changed his mind, maybe there is no judgement day.


In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.
Of course that result can be rigorously obtained, but who cares?
Combinatorics is Algebra and Algebra is Combinatorics.

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#74 2013-03-04 23:18:43

noemi
Member
Registered: 2010-01-07
Posts: 2,333

Re: Justice

What He says - He does it (cause nothing what He says is wrong, He doesn't need to correct himself)... His mind is not like ours- changeable..He can't contradict himself.. He knows everything... He knows your decision about your salvation in the future.. although you may never choose Jesus for your Savior (and He is going to let it happen)
judgement day ..it may be millions of years from now..but it may be in a few hours... reading the predictions from Bible, that time is very near..

Last edited by noemi (2013-03-04 23:20:46)

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#75 2013-03-04 23:22:33

bobbym
Administrator
From: Bumpkinland
Registered: 2009-04-12
Posts: 87,237

Re: Justice

Sorry, that is totally incorrect. You are describing a being without a free will. He can change his mind because if he can not then he can not do everything. This is a contradiction. Fully 1 / 3 of his angels had the right to make a choice, so can he.

There are no clear predictions in the Bible to give us any indication other than what alarmists would have us believe,


In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.
Of course that result can be rigorously obtained, but who cares?
Combinatorics is Algebra and Algebra is Combinatorics.

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