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**theoldbrewer****Member**- Registered: 2010-01-23
- Posts: 8

I think...no doubt others have come on here with the same message. It does not use computers by the way. But how to test it?? Would you need thousands of coded messages? I am new to this forum so all responses welcome, thanks.

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**John E. Franklin****Member**- Registered: 2005-08-29
- Posts: 3,562

Post some cryptic stuff and let us try to break it!

Don't post too much, or it might be solvable.

**igloo** **myrtilles** **fourmis**

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**bobbym****Administrator**- From: Bumpkinland
- Registered: 2009-04-12
- Posts: 86,695

Hi theoldbrewer;

You might as well post a message. If know one gets it that doesn't imply that it is uncrackable. By the way, Welcome to the Forum.

**In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.Of course that result can be rigorously obtained, but who cares?Combinatorics is Algebra and Algebra is Combinatorics.**

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**theoldbrewer****Member**- Registered: 2010-01-23
- Posts: 8

Here is my first substitution encrypted message. There are the same number of letters in each line

but the width of the letter spacing makes it appear as though there are not. I have used a randomly ordered alphabet on

an inner wheel and a different randomly ordered alphabet on the outer wheel. No more clues at this stage.

fhmxvwzwqcdicnxiyzwtyelazwczsyewdevyzmxhicuhvmhssl

qvvhwewjzzchvcsjcylenucxijsvlezicjzeyykplhvztjhzcz

uetvwzoecjhooujbxpysczgwtwfkwgsvfwvikxhxcecvlfxwne

iweujtjwywjtrczewcmrdidejeikourfzwjyiwfcocypwjishs

ecfehsdziyescqfwthwclwpgszvxwxjgvwzmzefykwgizhbijc

zeeiwsqlvyviwjxoxelejvhzjkwcvryehyewzjmewwhsajzjuz

ggmepidujviamzeavwwyzcwdyywwcfmufyzshmwwwvgipzwhbm

hnzcsclaledziwlehwswzzsizzjjdlveujvwszfsgjiaeimhvx

ejibyvtedycwfhwpcuiwczfhhfvavjdkzxsvfexsvjmwjwdumq

kzzhpzwiwxlfcvxyyczwhixwjwpzzrhfjwvwqsxwhiwzjhszee

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**John E. Franklin****Member**- Registered: 2005-08-29
- Posts: 3,562

I'm dumbfounded. I feel like a "jeik".

Very complicated.

**igloo** **myrtilles** **fourmis**

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**theoldbrewer****Member**- Registered: 2010-01-23
- Posts: 8

another clue then - not all the letters are used - some are just filling to confuse you.....

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**John E. Franklin****Member**- Registered: 2005-08-29
- Posts: 3,562

Even if I write a computer program to try to decrypt it, I

still don't think I'd get it for many years.

**igloo** **myrtilles** **fourmis**

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**theoldbrewer****Member**- Registered: 2010-01-23
- Posts: 8

I truly believe it is uncrackable because you cannot tell which letters are the message and which are fillers, which have been selected from a list that takes into account letter frequencies. It is a 26 letter wheel on top of a 26 letter wheel. But you don't know the wheel start point, or how it rotates, or which letters in the given block are the message. Were I to send a second message, the letters forming the message would be differently located, of course. How can it be cracked? from a theoretical point of view? Since you don't even know how many letters comprise the message. The wheel start point and where the message starts, and the number of filler letters between message letters is all stated within the block so the recipient can decode it quickly and easily. Comments, please.

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**bobbym****Administrator**- From: Bumpkinland
- Registered: 2009-04-12
- Posts: 86,695

Hi theoldbrewer;

Because no one has cracked it yet does not imply that it is uncrackable. Are you familiar with the German enigma machine. It used 5 rotors (wheels) and later 6 to encode messages. It was cracked by Alan Turing during WWII.

**In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.Of course that result can be rigorously obtained, but who cares?Combinatorics is Algebra and Algebra is Combinatorics.**

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**Devantè****Real Member**- Registered: 2006-07-14
- Posts: 6,400

Hmm... I think I remember talking to a Cambridge under-grad about an uncrackable cipher, and replied that it was indeed possible to do so. Can't remember how, though.

Speaking of enigma machines - I feel honoured to have used one. It's amazing what luxuries history holds.

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**bobbym****Administrator**- From: Bumpkinland
- Registered: 2009-04-12
- Posts: 86,695

Hi Devante;

I have never actually seen one. What was it like to use it?

**In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.Of course that result can be rigorously obtained, but who cares?Combinatorics is Algebra and Algebra is Combinatorics.**

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**bob farey****Guest**

in the enigma codes i believe every letter in the code was used in the message, and in sequence, so ANJERVSKH meant something, so A = A or B or C.......or Z and N=A thru Z and J=A thru Z you look at all permutations, eg 26 to the power 9, not hard for a computer....

HOWEVER My code is a relatively small message buried and hidden in the block, not all letters are used, not all lines are used, you don't even know if I go left to right, right to left, downwards, upwards, or diagonally and the next message will be different in layout, or not, to the previous message. I can't even figure out the permutations, but choosing which lines to look at gives you (for a 10 line block) if all lines are used 10 to the power 10 choices and if there are say 100 letters per line you have to guess how many are used AND try all guesses so if you guess 90 are used, the number of combinations 100C90 = 100C10 = 1.14134E+12

I suggest that the number of true words that would emerge from this random trawling would make it impossible to know even if you are getting "warm".

Didn't someone run all the hebrew letters in the Hebrew bible through a substitution cypher and discoer hidden messages that foretold the future?

I formally claim to have devided an uncrackable code. Of course if you burgle my house, and steal the encryption details or torture the message recipient you would crack it. The enigma code was only cracked after at least one machine was recovered from a boat or submarine...

**Identity****Member**- Registered: 2007-04-18
- Posts: 934

Couldn't some of the filling words or letters pollute the message so that it decrypts not how you intended it?

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**bobbym****Administrator**- From: Bumpkinland
- Registered: 2009-04-12
- Posts: 86,695

Hi bob;

eg 26 to the power 9, not hard for a computer..

Back in the days when Alan Turing cracked it there weren't any computers, he had to invent colossus. The first enigma machine was found by the Poles whose mathematicians paved the way for cracking it.

You may have invented a very difficult code but there is only one way to test that assertion.

Of course that result can be rigorously obtained, but who cares?

Combinatorics is Algebra and Algebra is Combinatorics.

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**bob farey****Guest**

there are 500 letters in the coded text, you do not know how many of these comprise the actual message, you do not know the direction of the text as stated in an earlier post. You therefore need to take any 499 letters, ie 500C499 = 500C1 = 500 and then put them in every possible order = factorial 500 AND for each order, any letter can equal any of 26 letters according to the coding system I have used, which gives factorial 500 multiplied by 26 to the power 99

This far exceeds the number of atoms in the known universe....

Now repeat for 498 letters used, 497 letters used, etc etc

You will find every word in the longer oxford dictionary, and be no nearer guessing which words are mine.

You say there is only one way to test it - What is it - that is the challenge I have thrown down.

Remember when Pasteur "discovered" bacteria, well the learned doctors and scholars were not happy, they could not see what he was telling them, and tried to rubbish him......the same thing happened to a doctor in a maternity hospital, he realised why one ward had 5 times the death rate of another room, he told his superiors, and they ran him out of town...because he said their filthy hands and instruments in the "poor" ward were killing the mothers and babies.....

**bobbym****Administrator**- From: Bumpkinland
- Registered: 2009-04-12
- Posts: 86,695

Hi bob;

Yes, I am somewhat familiar with the work of Pasteur, Semmelweis and Watson before him.

Let's assume that finding you physically was impossible so torture is out. This is only hypothetical of course but the true test of it would be how willing are you to encrypt some information of vital importance. When I say vital I mean life and death. When you know that your opponent is some government with unlimited resources and manpower. Knowing that if it were cracked you would forfeit your life. Are you that sure?

Of course that result can be rigorously obtained, but who cares?

Combinatorics is Algebra and Algebra is Combinatorics.

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**Devantè****Real Member**- Registered: 2006-07-14
- Posts: 6,400

bobbym wrote:

Hi Devante;

I have never actually seen one. What was it like to use it?

Initially difficult, but I was shown how to use it. Incredibly slow encrypting a message and it felt very 'bulky' - but it was definitely a worthwhile experience. If I remember correctly, the arrangement is not the usual "QWERTY" setup, since the German language has different frequency letters; arrangement is "QWERTZUIO" (1st row), "ASDFGHJK" (2nd row), and "PYXCVBNML" (3rd row). However, though the enigma machine was difficult to crack, and initially very successful for the Germans -- the British did eventually crack the code. They always ended their coded messages with "Heil Hitler", and, not only that, but they became rather careless with their alteration of the machine's three wheels; when you encrypt a code, you spin the wheels several times such that the order is completely different. Instead, the Germans decided to turn only the first wheel by 1 unit, meaning a pattern emerged in the enigma machine's code. They weren't particularly careful with the code configuration either; they published the new configurations monthly, which were accessible to the public -- which the British later discovered. It was the carelessness of the Germans that led to their codes being decrypted so quickly.

Good fun.

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**bobbym****Administrator**- From: Bumpkinland
- Registered: 2009-04-12
- Posts: 86,695

Hi Devante;

Interesting. The Andrew Hodges book about Alan Turing gave a different impression. Although he does speak of carelessness he doesn't mention your points. Ending the message the same way, moving the rotor only one click and publishing the new configs that goes beyond carelessness.

He mainly stated that the enigma was cracked due to Alan Turing's genius. Your points lead to a whole different viewpoint.

Of course that result can be rigorously obtained, but who cares?

Combinatorics is Algebra and Algebra is Combinatorics.

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**Devantè****Real Member**- Registered: 2006-07-14
- Posts: 6,400

Well, my only source was from a Cambridge graduate (working in the codebreaking faculty). I've not done much of my own research.

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**bobbym****Administrator**- From: Bumpkinland
- Registered: 2009-04-12
- Posts: 86,695

Hi;

That too is interesting. Does a Cambridge graduate rate higher than a Tutorial Fellow in Mathematics at Wadham College and author of a couple of books? Possibly.

Hodge's classic work could be an exaggeration of the story.

Of course that result can be rigorously obtained, but who cares?

Combinatorics is Algebra and Algebra is Combinatorics.

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**bob farey****Guest**

Bobbym, your reply about subjecting myself to death if I am wrong is very very silly and unworthy of this forum.

We have now established that Bletchley Park had an edge, all messages started or ended with Heil hitler, and they did not spin their rotors often enough.

I accept an army, navy airforce code for thousands of users is difficult and will be solved because of carelessness and stupidity.

My code is for one recipient (although could be for a small group I suppose). I am asking this forum to state how they would crack it, theoretically. At least tell me if I am wrong in saying you will find every word in the longer oxford dictionary due to the mind boggling number of permutations.

Regards

**bob farey****Guest**

By the way, moderators, the 3 digit code in the window to the right of Email address is ALWAYS 385

Bit of a booboo for a code interested forum, what???

Regards

**bobbym****Administrator**- From: Bumpkinland
- Registered: 2009-04-12
- Posts: 86,695

Hi;

Bobbym, your reply about subjecting myself to death if I am wrong is very very silly and unworthy of this forum.

No, it is just a hypothetical. The point is this. In constructing your encoding method you have used methods that have made a diificult code to crack. Those same methods have made it mathematically difficult to verify that it is uncrackable. Therefore you have no certainty that it is uncrackable. It might fall to the first attempt someone makes on it, I can't say.

From what I understand of it your coding method sounds very mechanical. I can't analyze it mathematically to state that it is uncrackable therefore I wouldn't bet big on it. That's why I gave you the somewhat contrived life and death example. You can't say it can't be deciphered, you don't know.

Of course that result can be rigorously obtained, but who cares?

Combinatorics is Algebra and Algebra is Combinatorics.

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**bobbym****Administrator**- From: Bumpkinland
- Registered: 2009-04-12
- Posts: 86,695

Hi bob;

Sometimes it is a 196, but then that was easy to miss.

Of course that result can be rigorously obtained, but who cares?

Combinatorics is Algebra and Algebra is Combinatorics.

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**bob farey****Guest**

it is a 26 letter alphabet wheel in random order rotating on another such one. It may sometimes advance with each new letter to code. As mentioned earlier, you do not know, in the block I have given you, which is the start letter or end letter, and you do not know how many dummy letters are between the start letter and the end letter, and I would not be daft enough to use the same number of dummy letters between each message letter. I may go left to right, right to left, up from left, up from right, down from left, down from right or a complicated diagonal pattern.

I say again, you need to test every possible permutation and with dummy letters mixed in with message letters, it just cannot be done. Yet if you were the receiving person with the key, you would read the message in less than 2 minutes......

It does not start or end with "Heil Moderators" every time and the message itself sets the "rotors".