Math Is Fun Forum
  Discussion about math, puzzles, games and fun.   Useful symbols: ÷ × ½ √ ∞ ≠ ≤ ≥ ≈ ⇒ ± ∈ Δ θ ∴ ∑ ∫ • π ƒ -¹ ² ³ °

You are not logged in.

#1 2013-07-05 02:28:39

Agnishom
Real Member
From: The Complex Plane
Registered: 2011-01-29
Posts: 15,372
Website

Ascent of Sap

What is the mechanism of it?


'And fun? If maths is fun, then getting a tooth extraction is fun. A viral infection is fun. Rabies shots are fun.'
'God exists because Mathematics is consistent, and the devil exists because we cannot prove it'
'Humanity is still kept intact. It remains within.' -Alokananda

Offline

#2 2013-07-05 02:31:00

bobbym
Administrator
From: Bumpkinland
Registered: 2009-04-12
Posts: 83,251

Re: Ascent of Sap

Could be capillary action. If you have ever seen a micropipette...


In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.
I have the result, but I do not yet know how to get it.
All physicists, and a good many quite respectable mathematicians are contemptuous about proof.

Offline

#3 2013-07-05 02:33:42

Agnishom
Real Member
From: The Complex Plane
Registered: 2011-01-29
Posts: 15,372
Website

Re: Ascent of Sap

Hmm...
And how does capillary action work?


'And fun? If maths is fun, then getting a tooth extraction is fun. A viral infection is fun. Rabies shots are fun.'
'God exists because Mathematics is consistent, and the devil exists because we cannot prove it'
'Humanity is still kept intact. It remains within.' -Alokananda

Offline

#4 2013-07-05 02:39:43

bobbym
Administrator
From: Bumpkinland
Registered: 2009-04-12
Posts: 83,251

Re: Ascent of Sap

They say it is caused by adhesion and cohesion of the liquid. They describe it as a fluid moving against gravity as long as the tube is very narrow.

Trouble is when you are using a micropipette which is a very, very thin tube. If you keep your thumb over the top no capillary action takes place. When you remove your thumb, presto liquid is drawn into the tube.


In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.
I have the result, but I do not yet know how to get it.
All physicists, and a good many quite respectable mathematicians are contemptuous about proof.

Offline

#5 2013-07-05 02:47:13

Agnishom
Real Member
From: The Complex Plane
Registered: 2011-01-29
Posts: 15,372
Website

Re: Ascent of Sap

Doesn't it seem very contradictory to common sense?

When the liquid goes up, some work is done, where does the energy come from?


'And fun? If maths is fun, then getting a tooth extraction is fun. A viral infection is fun. Rabies shots are fun.'
'God exists because Mathematics is consistent, and the devil exists because we cannot prove it'
'Humanity is still kept intact. It remains within.' -Alokananda

Offline

#6 2013-07-05 02:52:55

bobbym
Administrator
From: Bumpkinland
Registered: 2009-04-12
Posts: 83,251

Re: Ascent of Sap

Doesn't it seem very contradictory to common sense?

To a theoretician maybe. But every lab student in chemistry and microbiology  used to be able to make a pipette. I have seen the effect occur many times.

In a tree, the channels are very thin. this would allow for capillary action. The action would be assisted by the fact that evaporation occurs at the the leaves creating a pressure difference between the top and bottoms of the long canals. SAp would thenm be forced up through them.


In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.
I have the result, but I do not yet know how to get it.
All physicists, and a good many quite respectable mathematicians are contemptuous about proof.

Offline

#7 2013-07-05 02:56:00

Agnishom
Real Member
From: The Complex Plane
Registered: 2011-01-29
Posts: 15,372
Website

Re: Ascent of Sap

The action would be assisted by the fact that evaporation occurs at the the leaves creating a pressure difference between the top and bottoms of the long canals. SAp would thenm be forced up through them.

That is what exactly in my book. I just can't agree with that. There must be some pumping somewhere in the xylem


'And fun? If maths is fun, then getting a tooth extraction is fun. A viral infection is fun. Rabies shots are fun.'
'God exists because Mathematics is consistent, and the devil exists because we cannot prove it'
'Humanity is still kept intact. It remains within.' -Alokananda

Offline

#8 2013-07-05 03:01:44

bobbym
Administrator
From: Bumpkinland
Registered: 2009-04-12
Posts: 83,251

Re: Ascent of Sap

There might be, also in living things unknown processes might be taking place. Even a plant has consciousness and will.

But a micropipette is nothing but a very thin glass tube. There is no pumping just what they describe as capillary action. We assume the same effect is happening in the plant.

In science, we seek the simplest solutions.


In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.
I have the result, but I do not yet know how to get it.
All physicists, and a good many quite respectable mathematicians are contemptuous about proof.

Offline

#9 2013-07-05 03:06:36

Agnishom
Real Member
From: The Complex Plane
Registered: 2011-01-29
Posts: 15,372
Website

Re: Ascent of Sap

Even a plant has consciousness and will.

Do they have brains?

I still do not understand the micropipette action. I've seen such things though. I still do not understand why it should work.


'And fun? If maths is fun, then getting a tooth extraction is fun. A viral infection is fun. Rabies shots are fun.'
'God exists because Mathematics is consistent, and the devil exists because we cannot prove it'
'Humanity is still kept intact. It remains within.' -Alokananda

Offline

#10 2013-07-05 03:20:46

bobbym
Administrator
From: Bumpkinland
Registered: 2009-04-12
Posts: 83,251

Re: Ascent of Sap

There was a researcher named Cleve Backster whose work I read about when I was very young claimed that they did.

I still do not understand the micropipette action. I've seen such things though. I still do not understand why it should work.

Have you ever seen a meniscus?


In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.
I have the result, but I do not yet know how to get it.
All physicists, and a good many quite respectable mathematicians are contemptuous about proof.

Offline

#11 2013-07-05 03:22:52

Agnishom
Real Member
From: The Complex Plane
Registered: 2011-01-29
Posts: 15,372
Website

Re: Ascent of Sap

No. Whazzat?


'And fun? If maths is fun, then getting a tooth extraction is fun. A viral infection is fun. Rabies shots are fun.'
'God exists because Mathematics is consistent, and the devil exists because we cannot prove it'
'Humanity is still kept intact. It remains within.' -Alokananda

Offline

#12 2013-07-05 03:24:54

bobbym
Administrator
From: Bumpkinland
Registered: 2009-04-12
Posts: 83,251

Re: Ascent of Sap

300px-Reading_the_meniscus.svg.png

When a liquid is poured into a test tube the top behaves like one of those pictures. That is called a meniscus. In chemistry you measure the volume of the liquid using the meniscus.

150px-Meniscus.jpg

Wikipedia wrote:

Capillary action acts on concave menisci to pull the liquid up, increasing favorable contact area between liquid and container, and on convex menisci to pull the liquid down, reducing the amount of contact area. This phenomenon is important in transpirational pull in plants. Honey, water, milk etc. have a lower meniscus. When a tube of a narrow bore, often called a capillary tube, is dipped into a liquid and the liquid wets the tube (with zero contact angle), the liquid surface inside the tube forms a concave meniscus, which is a virtually spherical surface having the same radius, r, as the inside of the tube. The tube experiences a downward force of magnitude 2πrdσ

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meniscus


In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.
I have the result, but I do not yet know how to get it.
All physicists, and a good many quite respectable mathematicians are contemptuous about proof.

Offline

#13 2013-07-05 04:17:51

Agnishom
Real Member
From: The Complex Plane
Registered: 2011-01-29
Posts: 15,372
Website

Re: Ascent of Sap

The force comes from where?


'And fun? If maths is fun, then getting a tooth extraction is fun. A viral infection is fun. Rabies shots are fun.'
'God exists because Mathematics is consistent, and the devil exists because we cannot prove it'
'Humanity is still kept intact. It remains within.' -Alokananda

Offline

#14 2013-07-05 04:22:40

bobbym
Administrator
From: Bumpkinland
Registered: 2009-04-12
Posts: 83,251

Re: Ascent of Sap

Beats me! Physicists love to talk jargon.

From the point of an experimentalist, capillary action works. With it we used to catch a single Paramecium while he was happily swimming in a drop of water.


In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.
I have the result, but I do not yet know how to get it.
All physicists, and a good many quite respectable mathematicians are contemptuous about proof.

Offline

#15 2013-07-05 04:23:52

Agnishom
Real Member
From: The Complex Plane
Registered: 2011-01-29
Posts: 15,372
Website

Re: Ascent of Sap

I would say, its a miracle!


'And fun? If maths is fun, then getting a tooth extraction is fun. A viral infection is fun. Rabies shots are fun.'
'God exists because Mathematics is consistent, and the devil exists because we cannot prove it'
'Humanity is still kept intact. It remains within.' -Alokananda

Offline

#16 2013-07-05 04:28:43

bobbym
Administrator
From: Bumpkinland
Registered: 2009-04-12
Posts: 83,251

Re: Ascent of Sap

Yes, it is amazing. As I often say, you do not have to understand something to admire and use it.


In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.
I have the result, but I do not yet know how to get it.
All physicists, and a good many quite respectable mathematicians are contemptuous about proof.

Offline

#17 2013-07-05 04:32:24

Agnishom
Real Member
From: The Complex Plane
Registered: 2011-01-29
Posts: 15,372
Website

Re: Ascent of Sap

Isn't science more about why than how?


'And fun? If maths is fun, then getting a tooth extraction is fun. A viral infection is fun. Rabies shots are fun.'
'God exists because Mathematics is consistent, and the devil exists because we cannot prove it'
'Humanity is still kept intact. It remains within.' -Alokananda

Offline

#18 2013-07-05 04:39:41

bobbym
Administrator
From: Bumpkinland
Registered: 2009-04-12
Posts: 83,251

Re: Ascent of Sap

It is not supposed to be. Science is observation. It is the how. The why can never be known.


In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.
I have the result, but I do not yet know how to get it.
All physicists, and a good many quite respectable mathematicians are contemptuous about proof.

Offline

#19 2013-07-05 05:57:52

Agnishom
Real Member
From: The Complex Plane
Registered: 2011-01-29
Posts: 15,372
Website

Re: Ascent of Sap

Do we call the why mathematics?


'And fun? If maths is fun, then getting a tooth extraction is fun. A viral infection is fun. Rabies shots are fun.'
'God exists because Mathematics is consistent, and the devil exists because we cannot prove it'
'Humanity is still kept intact. It remains within.' -Alokananda

Offline

#20 2013-07-05 08:11:00

bobbym
Administrator
From: Bumpkinland
Registered: 2009-04-12
Posts: 83,251

Re: Ascent of Sap

Mathematics could be described as a game. That is called Formalism. Some mathematicians know that it has no real basis in reality.


In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.
I have the result, but I do not yet know how to get it.
All physicists, and a good many quite respectable mathematicians are contemptuous about proof.

Offline

#21 2013-07-05 14:53:59

Agnishom
Real Member
From: The Complex Plane
Registered: 2011-01-29
Posts: 15,372
Website

Re: Ascent of Sap

Okay_guy.svg

I would rather add Ascent of sap to one of the most miraculous ideas list

Last edited by Agnishom (2013-07-05 14:55:29)


'And fun? If maths is fun, then getting a tooth extraction is fun. A viral infection is fun. Rabies shots are fun.'
'God exists because Mathematics is consistent, and the devil exists because we cannot prove it'
'Humanity is still kept intact. It remains within.' -Alokananda

Offline

#22 2013-07-05 15:28:53

bobbym
Administrator
From: Bumpkinland
Registered: 2009-04-12
Posts: 83,251

Re: Ascent of Sap

It sounds kind of sappy to me.


In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.
I have the result, but I do not yet know how to get it.
All physicists, and a good many quite respectable mathematicians are contemptuous about proof.

Offline

#23 2013-07-05 16:00:25

Agnishom
Real Member
From: The Complex Plane
Registered: 2011-01-29
Posts: 15,372
Website

Re: Ascent of Sap

sappy?


'And fun? If maths is fun, then getting a tooth extraction is fun. A viral infection is fun. Rabies shots are fun.'
'God exists because Mathematics is consistent, and the devil exists because we cannot prove it'
'Humanity is still kept intact. It remains within.' -Alokananda

Offline

#24 2013-07-05 16:02:21

bobbym
Administrator
From: Bumpkinland
Registered: 2009-04-12
Posts: 83,251

Re: Ascent of Sap

Ascent of Sap

Sappy: Containing a lot of sap, foolish.


In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.
I have the result, but I do not yet know how to get it.
All physicists, and a good many quite respectable mathematicians are contemptuous about proof.

Offline

#25 2013-07-05 16:08:17

Agnishom
Real Member
From: The Complex Plane
Registered: 2011-01-29
Posts: 15,372
Website

Re: Ascent of Sap

Well, when the water is pulled up during capillary action some work is done. Who gives the energy?


'And fun? If maths is fun, then getting a tooth extraction is fun. A viral infection is fun. Rabies shots are fun.'
'God exists because Mathematics is consistent, and the devil exists because we cannot prove it'
'Humanity is still kept intact. It remains within.' -Alokananda

Offline

Board footer

Powered by FluxBB