Discussion about math, puzzles, games and fun. Useful symbols: ÷ × ½ √ ∞ ≠ ≤ ≥ ≈ ⇒ ± ∈ Δ θ ∴ ∑ ∫ π -¹ ² ³ °

You are not logged in.

- Topics: Active | Unanswered

**Patrick****Real Member**- Registered: 2006-02-24
- Posts: 1,005

Okay, so the set theory thread has gotten a little out of hand. I therefore suggest that we discusss a standard that will be used. Say, for each topic, if there are two or three commonly used symbols used in that field - we pick one, and use that in each post in that particular thread. I don't know if this will be efficient, but I think it would be great for the purpose of understanding what's meant.

Support MathsIsFun.com by clicking on the banners.

What music do I listen to? Clicky click

Offline

**shii****Member**- Registered: 2008-03-20
- Posts: 1

hi..i want to know what is cost price &selling price?

how i calculate profit & loss?

Offline

**Ninja 101****Member**- Registered: 2006-02-20
- Posts: 936

If this hasn't already been stated...

Surely it's 'Formulae'

It is a Latin word, after all...

I used to say formulae in Chemistry...

Chaos is found in greatest abundance wherever order is being saught. It always defeats order, because it is better organized.

Offline

**noelevans****Member**- Registered: 2012-07-20
- Posts: 236

Regarding post #11 about sets: I vote for doing just sets and not include real analysis.

But I would include formulas about the other half of set theory --- multisets. Not many folks are aware of multisets. Sets which allow only one copy of each type of element (typesets) form the set theory that corresponds to two valued (T/F) logic. Multisets which have at least two of al tleast one type of object (Eg. {x,x,y,z,z,z,t}, {x,x,y,z}, {x,y,y,y}, etc.) together with typesets forms a bigger set theory in which we have extra operations and relationships. Eg. addition: {x,y,y}+{y,z,z} = {x,y,y,y,z,z}. Similarity: A and B are similar if they have the same types of objects but not necessarily the same number of each type. typeset operator T: T{x,x,y,z,z,z} = {x,y,z} outputs one of each type of object. Likeset operator L: L{x,x,y,z,z,z} = {o,o,o,o,o,o} changes all objects into one generic type object named "o".

Of course we still have union (based on maxima) and intersection (based on minima) and equality of sets. Also there are subsets and differences of sets.

Restricting the types to "o" alone we obtain { }, {o}, {o,o}, {o,o,o}, ... to which we can give the names 0, 1, 2, 3, ... These fit "hand in glove" with basic whole number arithmetic. These sets can be used for "written manipulatives". For example {o,o}+{o,o,o}={o,o,o,o,o} written in terms of their names is 2+3=5. Inequalities come from the subset relationships.

One might have a bit of trouble finding much about these on the internet. Most of the work done on these basic concepts has been done by computer sicentists since their programming languages usually include strings that may or may not have multiple copies of some symbols.

I'd be interested to know what you find out about multisets if you are so inclined.

Writing "pretty" math (two dimensional) is easier to read and grasp than LaTex (one dimensional).

LaTex is like painting on many strips of paper and then stacking them to see what picture they make.

Offline

**bobbym****Administrator**- From: Bumpkinland
- Registered: 2009-04-12
- Posts: 94,477

Hi noelevans;

Multisets or families as they are sometimes called are used in combinatorics.

**In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.**

**If it ain't broke, fix it until it is.**

**Online**

**noelevans****Member**- Registered: 2012-07-20
- Posts: 236

Computer scientists are way ahead of the mathematicians when it comes to dealing with multisets. For example Visual Studio 12 has a list of 42 functions that operate on multisets. However there seems to be quite an analogy between LaTex/PrettyMath and VisualStudio12/PrettyMultisets. The encoding of Visual Studio 12 is much more complicated than the plain mathematical writing of multisets and their operations. That seems quite analogous to the complicated coding in LaTex vs its output. The basics of multiset theory have been known since the 1960's and maybe awhile longer. The ideas are catching on finally in the mathematical community, but have not been introduced into curricula up through at least high school.

There are some interesting correlations between multisets and prime factors of a number M. For example If M=12 then the multiset of prime factors of M is PM={2,2,3}. The number of distinct subsets of PM is always equal to the number of factors of M (FM={1,2,3,4,6,12} has 6 elements).

Also a number M is a perfect square if and only if the number of distinct subsets of PM is odd.

Also HCF(M,N) = X(PMnPM); LCM (M,N)=X(PMuPN); MxN=X(PM+PN) where

X and x indicate products, n is for intersection and u is for union, + dumps PM and PN together.

The list is much longer than this, but this is enough to give the flavor of the correlation.

Writing "pretty" math (two dimensional) is easier to read and grasp than LaTex (one dimensional).

LaTex is like painting on many strips of paper and then stacking them to see what picture they make.

Offline

**anonimnystefy****Real Member**- From: The Foundation
- Registered: 2011-05-23
- Posts: 15,919

noelevans wrote:

Computer scientists are way ahead of the mathematicians when it comes to dealing with multisets. For example Visual Studio 12 has a list of 42 functions that operate on multisets. However there seems to be quite an analogy between LaTex/PrettyMath and VisualStudio12/PrettyMultisets. The encoding of Visual Studio 12 is much more complicated than the plain mathematical writing of multisets and their operations. That seems quite analogous to the complicated coding in LaTex vs its output. The basics of multiset theory have been known since the 1960's and maybe awhile longer. The ideas are catching on finally in the mathematical community, but have not been introduced into curricula up through at least high school.

There are some interesting correlations between multisets and prime factors of a number M. For example If M=12 then the multiset of prime factors of M is PM={2,2,3}. The number of distinct subsets of PM is always equal to the number of factors of M (FM={1,2,3,4,6,12} has 6 elements).

Also a number M is a perfect square if and only if the number of distinct subsets of PM is odd.

Also HCF(M,N) = X(PMnPM); LCM (M,N)=X(PMuPN); MxN=X(PM+PN) where

X and x indicate products, n is for intersection and u is for union, + dumps PM and PN together.

The list is much longer than this, but this is enough to give the flavor of the correlation.

Why would they introduce multisets into curriculum if they haven't done so with GF's yet?

I am really amused thaou think there is anything theorethic that computer scientists found before mathematicians. One of the first mentions of multisets in math was by Dedekind in a paper of his in from 1888.

Here lies the reader who will never open this book. He is forever dead.

Taking a new step, uttering a new word, is what people fear most. ― Fyodor Dostoyevsky, Crime and Punishment

The knowledge of some things as a function of age is a delta function.

Offline

**noelevans****Member**- Registered: 2012-07-20
- Posts: 236

Hi stefy!

What is GF? What comes to mind for me is "Gone Fishing" or "Great Fun" but I doubt that that's it.

I don't know if computer scientists have done much theoretical work in the field, but by the very nature of their programming languages they are forced to deal with multisets extensively. That's what I was trying to convey by "ahead in dealing with multisets."

Writing "pretty" math (two dimensional) is easier to read and grasp than LaTex (one dimensional).

LaTex is like painting on many strips of paper and then stacking them to see what picture they make.

Offline

**anonimnystefy****Real Member**- From: The Foundation
- Registered: 2011-05-23
- Posts: 15,919

GF means generating function. There is a great deal of books that dels wit/mentions them. They are mostly represented by the generatingfunctionoligy.

Just because they are forced to deal with multisets doesn't mean they are ahead with them. Mathematicians have first used them and probably expanded them in some direction and probably have many applications for them.

Here lies the reader who will never open this book. He is forever dead.

Taking a new step, uttering a new word, is what people fear most. ― Fyodor Dostoyevsky, Crime and Punishment

The knowledge of some things as a function of age is a delta function.

Offline

**bobbym****Administrator**- From: Bumpkinland
- Registered: 2009-04-12
- Posts: 94,477

Uh guys, combinatorics was around way before computers.

**In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.**

**If it ain't broke, fix it until it is.**

**Online**

**anonimnystefy****Real Member**- From: The Foundation
- Registered: 2011-05-23
- Posts: 15,919

My point exactly.

Here lies the reader who will never open this book. He is forever dead.

Taking a new step, uttering a new word, is what people fear most. ― Fyodor Dostoyevsky, Crime and Punishment

The knowledge of some things as a function of age is a delta function.

Offline

**noelevans****Member**- Registered: 2012-07-20
- Posts: 236

Yes indeedy! Combinatoris predates computers bunches. I probably should have said something like "Regarding **awareness** of multisets, the percent of CS folks that are aware is greater than the percent of mathematicians that are aware."

Ah yes! Generating Functions. Like x/(x^2-x-1) generates the Fibonacci sequence if you carry the division on forever past the decimal.

And as an attempt to answer your question, stefy, about introducing multisets vs GFs into math curricula, multisets fit "hand in glove" with basic arithmetic and provide "written manipulatives" for understanding arithmetic. GFs are a bit further down the road.

Hey bobbym, I am trying with this post another attempt at having a signature. We will see if it makes it OK.

And thanks for taking my "LaTex" goof up off the posts! I wasn't sure how to do it. Didn't want to mess anything else up.

LaTex is like painting on many strips of paper and then stacking them to see what picture they make.

Offline

**bobbym****Administrator**- From: Bumpkinland
- Registered: 2009-04-12
- Posts: 94,477

And thanks for taking my "LaTex" goof up off the posts!

Your welcome.

**In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.**

**If it ain't broke, fix it until it is.**

**Online**

**ShivamS****Member**- Registered: 2011-02-07
- Posts: 3,640

Barbie's profile says she has 2 posts, when she only has one. And chemistry is very interesting (yet my least favorite science).

Offline

**barbie19022002****Member**- Registered: 2013-05-24
- Posts: 1,314

what about einstein's famous equation = e=mc²

Jake is Alice's father, Jake is the ________ of Alice's father?

Why is T called island letter?

think, think, think and don't get up with a solution...

Offline

**sutapabaul****Member**- Registered: 2014-02-15
- Posts: 1

Can anyone please help me to solve cubic equations?I mean,what are the formulae for product and sum of the roots?Thanking you;Sutapa

Offline

'And fun? If maths is fun, then getting a tooth extraction is fun. A viral infection is fun. Rabies shots are fun.'

'God exists because Mathematics is consistent, and the devil exists because we cannot prove it'

'You have made another human being happy. There is no greater accomplishment.' -bobbym

Offline