Math Is Fun Forum
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#1 2013-09-30 15:35:48
Cracking PRNGs
How do you predict the output of a pseudo random software number generator?
'And fun? If maths is fun, then getting a tooth extraction is fun. A viral infection is fun. Rabies shots are fun.'
'God exists because Mathematics is consistent, and the devil exists because we cannot prove it'
I'm not crazy, my mother had me tested.
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#2 2013-09-30 19:51:52
- bobbym
- bumpkin
- From: Bumpkinland
- Registered: 2009-04-12
- Posts: 109,606
Re: Cracking PRNGs
Do you have the generator?
In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.
If it ain't broke, fix it until it is.
Always satisfy the Prime Directive of getting the right answer above all else.
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#3 2013-10-01 04:56:51
Re: Cracking PRNGs
Umm... yeah. But no hint what kind of a generator it is. I am certain that it does not take entropy from the operating system
'And fun? If maths is fun, then getting a tooth extraction is fun. A viral infection is fun. Rabies shots are fun.'
'God exists because Mathematics is consistent, and the devil exists because we cannot prove it'
I'm not crazy, my mother had me tested.
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#4 2013-10-01 05:07:46
- bobbym
- bumpkin
- From: Bumpkinland
- Registered: 2009-04-12
- Posts: 109,606
Re: Cracking PRNGs
I have seen contrived questions where from the data you can deduce what the generator looks like. But theoretically this is very, very difficult if not impossible. But in practice, poor implementation or bad seeds can make the job somewhat easier. It is known that both Windoze and Lunix have security flaws in their prngs.
Have you read Schneier's paper?
In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.
If it ain't broke, fix it until it is.
Always satisfy the Prime Directive of getting the right answer above all else.
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#5 2013-10-01 14:00:18
Re: Cracking PRNGs
No, what's that?
Okay, this is not a Windoze or Lunix prng. Besides I do not know how to execute the prng on Windoze.
As far as I know, the only flaw is that the OS can be flushed with a state of known entropy
Last edited by Agnishom (2013-10-01 14:03:38)
'And fun? If maths is fun, then getting a tooth extraction is fun. A viral infection is fun. Rabies shots are fun.'
'God exists because Mathematics is consistent, and the devil exists because we cannot prove it'
I'm not crazy, my mother had me tested.
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#6 2013-10-01 14:38:11
- bobbym
- bumpkin
- From: Bumpkinland
- Registered: 2009-04-12
- Posts: 109,606
Re: Cracking PRNGs
The papers probably describe how to. Why do you want to?
In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.
If it ain't broke, fix it until it is.
Always satisfy the Prime Directive of getting the right answer above all else.
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#7 2013-10-02 02:01:50
Re: Cracking PRNGs
Because its fun. Being able to predict things are fun.
However, I really do not want to crack the human PRNGs which determine their moods.
Last edited by Agnishom (2013-10-02 02:02:24)
'And fun? If maths is fun, then getting a tooth extraction is fun. A viral infection is fun. Rabies shots are fun.'
'God exists because Mathematics is consistent, and the devil exists because we cannot prove it'
I'm not crazy, my mother had me tested.
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#8 2013-10-02 02:05:25
- bobbym
- bumpkin
- From: Bumpkinland
- Registered: 2009-04-12
- Posts: 109,606
Re: Cracking PRNGs
Human prngs? What are those?
In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.
If it ain't broke, fix it until it is.
Always satisfy the Prime Directive of getting the right answer above all else.
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#9 2013-10-02 02:48:23
Re: Cracking PRNGs
Brains. Which get entropy from
a) the level of fulfilment of the stomach
b) the amount of money one posseses
c) several stimulus
d) past memories
e) past entropies
f) entropies from others
.
.
xyz) and much more
and generate emotions about being happy or sad
'And fun? If maths is fun, then getting a tooth extraction is fun. A viral infection is fun. Rabies shots are fun.'
'God exists because Mathematics is consistent, and the devil exists because we cannot prove it'
I'm not crazy, my mother had me tested.
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#10 2013-10-02 02:50:51
- bobbym
- bumpkin
- From: Bumpkinland
- Registered: 2009-04-12
- Posts: 109,606
Re: Cracking PRNGs
Entropies? How do you define that?
In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.
If it ain't broke, fix it until it is.
Always satisfy the Prime Directive of getting the right answer above all else.
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#11 2013-10-02 02:53:47
Re: Cracking PRNGs
Hmm
I do not know. I think I have been reading the wiki for too long
'And fun? If maths is fun, then getting a tooth extraction is fun. A viral infection is fun. Rabies shots are fun.'
'God exists because Mathematics is consistent, and the devil exists because we cannot prove it'
I'm not crazy, my mother had me tested.
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#12 2013-10-02 02:55:31
- bobbym
- bumpkin
- From: Bumpkinland
- Registered: 2009-04-12
- Posts: 109,606
Re: Cracking PRNGs
So what are you trying to do here?
In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.
If it ain't broke, fix it until it is.
Always satisfy the Prime Directive of getting the right answer above all else.
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#13 2013-10-02 03:00:50
Re: Cracking PRNGs
Learn to crack PRNGs
'And fun? If maths is fun, then getting a tooth extraction is fun. A viral infection is fun. Rabies shots are fun.'
'God exists because Mathematics is consistent, and the devil exists because we cannot prove it'
I'm not crazy, my mother had me tested.
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#14 2013-10-02 03:03:17
- bobbym
- bumpkin
- From: Bumpkinland
- Registered: 2009-04-12
- Posts: 109,606
Re: Cracking PRNGs
And when you have done that?
In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.
If it ain't broke, fix it until it is.
Always satisfy the Prime Directive of getting the right answer above all else.
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#15 2013-10-02 03:04:38
Re: Cracking PRNGs
I've not done that. I am willing to do it.
'And fun? If maths is fun, then getting a tooth extraction is fun. A viral infection is fun. Rabies shots are fun.'
'God exists because Mathematics is consistent, and the devil exists because we cannot prove it'
I'm not crazy, my mother had me tested.
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#16 2013-10-02 03:06:26
- bobbym
- bumpkin
- From: Bumpkinland
- Registered: 2009-04-12
- Posts: 109,606
Re: Cracking PRNGs
There are two approaches both difficult. A math attack and a debugger.
In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.
If it ain't broke, fix it until it is.
Always satisfy the Prime Directive of getting the right answer above all else.
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#17 2013-10-02 03:10:09
Re: Cracking PRNGs
Can you teach me those or any one of those?
'And fun? If maths is fun, then getting a tooth extraction is fun. A viral infection is fun. Rabies shots are fun.'
'God exists because Mathematics is consistent, and the devil exists because we cannot prove it'
I'm not crazy, my mother had me tested.
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#18 2013-10-02 03:13:57
- bobbym
- bumpkin
- From: Bumpkinland
- Registered: 2009-04-12
- Posts: 109,606
Re: Cracking PRNGs
For the general problem you are asking I do not think so. I was still learning myself.
In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.
If it ain't broke, fix it until it is.
Always satisfy the Prime Directive of getting the right answer above all else.
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#19 2013-10-02 03:17:37
Re: Cracking PRNGs
Ok, can you tell how you're learning?
'And fun? If maths is fun, then getting a tooth extraction is fun. A viral infection is fun. Rabies shots are fun.'
'God exists because Mathematics is consistent, and the devil exists because we cannot prove it'
I'm not crazy, my mother had me tested.
Offline
#20 2013-10-02 03:24:33
- bobbym
- bumpkin
- From: Bumpkinland
- Registered: 2009-04-12
- Posts: 109,606
Re: Cracking PRNGs
Know what a reverse engineer is?
Got to go offline, see you tomorrow.
In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.
If it ain't broke, fix it until it is.
Always satisfy the Prime Directive of getting the right answer above all else.
Offline
#21 2013-10-02 03:37:37
Re: Cracking PRNGs
I've a little idea.
Tomorrow with respect to whom?
'And fun? If maths is fun, then getting a tooth extraction is fun. A viral infection is fun. Rabies shots are fun.'
'God exists because Mathematics is consistent, and the devil exists because we cannot prove it'
I'm not crazy, my mother had me tested.
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#22 2013-10-02 09:29:18
- bobbym
- bumpkin
- From: Bumpkinland
- Registered: 2009-04-12
- Posts: 109,606
Re: Cracking PRNGs
To you I would say. By the time I am done you will be sleeping.
In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.
If it ain't broke, fix it until it is.
Always satisfy the Prime Directive of getting the right answer above all else.
Offline
#23 2013-10-02 13:56:56
Re: Cracking PRNGs
What if we are not allowed to use a debugger?
What if we are cracking a PRNG on a remote computer?
'And fun? If maths is fun, then getting a tooth extraction is fun. A viral infection is fun. Rabies shots are fun.'
'God exists because Mathematics is consistent, and the devil exists because we cannot prove it'
I'm not crazy, my mother had me tested.
Offline
#24 2013-10-02 19:08:54
- bobbym
- bumpkin
- From: Bumpkinland
- Registered: 2009-04-12
- Posts: 109,606
Re: Cracking PRNGs
To access the prng of the operating system on a foreign machine you would need to cause a buffer overflow error. Of course such a result would qualify as a malicious act.
In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.
If it ain't broke, fix it until it is.
Always satisfy the Prime Directive of getting the right answer above all else.
Offline
#25 2013-10-02 23:35:00
Re: Cracking PRNGs
What if it does not belong to the OS?
'And fun? If maths is fun, then getting a tooth extraction is fun. A viral infection is fun. Rabies shots are fun.'
'God exists because Mathematics is consistent, and the devil exists because we cannot prove it'
I'm not crazy, my mother had me tested.
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