Math Is Fun Forum

bobbym

bumpkin

From: Bumpkinland

Registered: 2009-04-12

Posts: 109,606

Re: Is this cool with you?

Hi gAr;

That is great!

Bear with me for a second, when A has 5 bullets and pulls the trigger and no shot is fired then control passes to B. B has 5 bullets but he misses. Control goes back to A. What do you want to do about the number of bullets A has? Does he have 5 or 4?

---

In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.
If it ain't broke, fix it until it is.
Always satisfy the Prime Directive of getting the right answer above all else.

gAr

Member

Registered: 2011-01-09

Posts: 3,482

Re: Is this cool with you?

Hi bobbym,

Sorry for the delay.

No shot is fired means it was an empty chamber when he pulled the trigger.
So, when A had 5 bullets, it is still 5 bullets he has when he gets the turn. When B misses the target, B will be having 4 bullets during his turn.

---

"Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense"  - Buddha?

"Data! Data! Data!" he cried impatiently. "I can't make bricks without clay."

bobbym

bumpkin

From: Bumpkinland

Registered: 2009-04-12

Posts: 109,606

Re: Is this cool with you?

Hi gAr;

No problem with the delay. Thank you for defining the rules.

---

In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.
If it ain't broke, fix it until it is.
Always satisfy the Prime Directive of getting the right answer above all else.

gAr

Member

Registered: 2011-01-09

Posts: 3,482

Re: Is this cool with you?

Okay.

I'm thinking whether a markov chain can be used at all for this problem.
It needs to keep track of the previous action to go to the next state.

---

"Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense"  - Buddha?

"Data! Data! Data!" he cried impatiently. "I can't make bricks without clay."

bobbym

bumpkin

From: Bumpkinland

Registered: 2009-04-12

Posts: 109,606

Re: Is this cool with you?

That is correct it is now much harder because of things like B could run out of bullets and A could still have 5 left!

---

In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.
If it ain't broke, fix it until it is.
Always satisfy the Prime Directive of getting the right answer above all else.

gAr

Member

Registered: 2011-01-09

Posts: 3,482

Re: Is this cool with you?

Yes, you are right.

---

"Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense"  - Buddha?

"Data! Data! Data!" he cried impatiently. "I can't make bricks without clay."

bobbym

bumpkin

From: Bumpkinland

Registered: 2009-04-12

Posts: 109,606

Re: Is this cool with you?

So far I have an 81 x 81 since I would not be able to post it, I am looking for something else.

---

In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.
If it ain't broke, fix it until it is.
Always satisfy the Prime Directive of getting the right answer above all else.

gAr

Member

Registered: 2011-01-09

Posts: 3,482

Re: Is this cool with you?

Oh, okay, that's really big!

---

"Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense"  - Buddha?

"Data! Data! Data!" he cried impatiently. "I can't make bricks without clay."

bobbym

bumpkin

From: Bumpkinland

Registered: 2009-04-12

Posts: 109,606

Re: Is this cool with you?

Too big to work on and then find out later it is setup wrong. I will try a simulation first.

---

In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.
If it ain't broke, fix it until it is.
Always satisfy the Prime Directive of getting the right answer above all else.

gAr

Member

Registered: 2011-01-09

Posts: 3,482

Re: Is this cool with you?

Ok, a simulation would be good.

---

"Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense"  - Buddha?

"Data! Data! Data!" he cried impatiently. "I can't make bricks without clay."

bobbym

bumpkin

From: Bumpkinland

Registered: 2009-04-12

Posts: 109,606

Re: Is this cool with you?

Hi gAr;

Believe it or not that is tough too.

---

In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.
If it ain't broke, fix it until it is.
Always satisfy the Prime Directive of getting the right answer above all else.

gAr

Member

Registered: 2011-01-09

Posts: 3,482

Re: Is this cool with you?

Hi bobbym,

I believe it would be tough too, as there are many cases to consider.
I don't know how tough it is, since I'm not experienced with simulations.

---

"Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense"  - Buddha?

"Data! Data! Data!" he cried impatiently. "I can't make bricks without clay."

bobbym

bumpkin

From: Bumpkinland

Registered: 2009-04-12

Posts: 109,606

Re: Is this cool with you?

Hi gAr;

This is the results of a simulation of 3 000 000 games. If I have done the simulation correctly then the following applies.

By statistics there is more than a 99% chance that the following bounds are true.

Caveat:
I am unhappy with an answer like this for 2 main reasons.

1) A simulation, in my opinion should be accompanied by a mathematical result. That way, they back each other up. Standalone results are always dangerous.

2) This answer is unlikely to shed any light on a markov chain approach. Because almost any markov model we make will have results very close to this one. Perhaps even within the bounds given. The answer will not shed much light on the difference between a right and wrong approach!

---

In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.
If it ain't broke, fix it until it is.
Always satisfy the Prime Directive of getting the right answer above all else.

gAr

Member

Registered: 2011-01-09

Posts: 3,482

Re: Is this cool with you?

Hi bobbym,

Thanks for running the simulation.

Yes, I too agree with the caveats.
Anyway, our analysis did not yield answers which are very close to the simulation.

I can't even search for this kind of problems, don't know what keywords to use!

---

"Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense"  - Buddha?

"Data! Data! Data!" he cried impatiently. "I can't make bricks without clay."

bobbym

bumpkin

From: Bumpkinland

Registered: 2009-04-12

Posts: 109,606

Re: Is this cool with you?

Hi gAr;

Until we get another answer that is close to this by another way we are in the spot as before. No way to prove that this is right either.

---

In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.
If it ain't broke, fix it until it is.
Always satisfy the Prime Directive of getting the right answer above all else.

gAr

Member

Registered: 2011-01-09

Posts: 3,482

Re: Is this cool with you?

Hi bobbym,

Yes, and I have no idea yet.

---

"Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense"  - Buddha?

"Data! Data! Data!" he cried impatiently. "I can't make bricks without clay."

bobbym

bumpkin

From: Bumpkinland

Registered: 2009-04-12

Posts: 109,606

Re: Is this cool with you?

Hi gAr;

The only thing I have is a really big matrix to fill. If it is wrong it is going to be a big waste of time.

---

In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.
If it ain't broke, fix it until it is.
Always satisfy the Prime Directive of getting the right answer above all else.

gAr

Member

Registered: 2011-01-09

Posts: 3,482

Re: Is this cool with you?

Hi bobbym,

That's how felt when I saw the answer from my huge matrix. Your matrix is even bigger, so I suggest against it.
There ought to be an easier way, we have to put the cannon aside, it's blocking our view!
Or shall we defer solving this problem?

---

"Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense"  - Buddha?

"Data! Data! Data!" he cried impatiently. "I can't make bricks without clay."

bobbym

bumpkin

From: Bumpkinland

Registered: 2009-04-12

Posts: 109,606

Re: Is this cool with you?

Hi gAr;

The way the rules are stated the series way is out and the Markov chain might be out also. I agree that we are forced to just leave it be for now.

---

In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.
If it ain't broke, fix it until it is.
Always satisfy the Prime Directive of getting the right answer above all else.

gAr

Member

Registered: 2011-01-09

Posts: 3,482

Re: Is this cool with you?

Yes.
Why not start a new thread for unsolved problems or tough problems?

---

"Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense"  - Buddha?

"Data! Data! Data!" he cried impatiently. "I can't make bricks without clay."

bobbym

bumpkin

From: Bumpkinland

Registered: 2009-04-12

Posts: 109,606

Re: Is this cool with you?

Hi gAr;

I could just post new problems after it. This whole thread is for tough problems already. Basically "Is this cool with you" and "What do you think" are for people who are going beyond math taught in schools.

---

In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.
If it ain't broke, fix it until it is.
Always satisfy the Prime Directive of getting the right answer above all else.

gAr

Member

Registered: 2011-01-09

Posts: 3,482

Re: Is this cool with you?

Hi bobbym,

Ok.
But I think it would be better if you start a separate topic like you started for "computer math", name it "Is this cool with you" or "what do you think", and inside that start a new thread for for each question.
It would be helpful to refer the questions quickly, and looks neater than a thread with replies running many pages!

---

"Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense"  - Buddha?

"Data! Data! Data!" he cried impatiently. "I can't make bricks without clay."

bobbym

bumpkin

From: Bumpkinland

Registered: 2009-04-12

Posts: 109,606

Re: Is this cool with you?

Hi gAr;

You mean start a new forum? Like "Exercises" or "This is Cool" or "Computer Math?"

---

In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.
If it ain't broke, fix it until it is.
Always satisfy the Prime Directive of getting the right answer above all else.

gAr

Member

Registered: 2011-01-09

Posts: 3,482

Re: Is this cool with you?

Yes, correct.
Sorry, I have problem with terminologies!

---

"Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense"  - Buddha?

"Data! Data! Data!" he cried impatiently. "I can't make bricks without clay."

bobbym

bumpkin

From: Bumpkinland

Registered: 2009-04-12

Posts: 109,606

Re: Is this cool with you?

That is okay. I wished I could do what you are suggesting but only MIF has that power.

When I first came here 2 years ago in 2 days! This was already a well established forum. All the moderators and most of the members were here before me. So the forum was pretty well laid out.

---

In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.
If it ain't broke, fix it until it is.
Always satisfy the Prime Directive of getting the right answer above all else.