Math Is Fun Forum

bobbym

bumpkin

From: Bumpkinland

Registered: 2009-04-12

Posts: 109,606

Re: What do you think?

Hi gAr;

Yes, because we do not agree in the total number of ways.

If we can agree on the total number then we will be okay!

---

In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.
If it ain't broke, fix it until it is.
Always satisfy the Prime Directive of getting the right answer above all else.

gAr

Member

Registered: 2011-01-09

Posts: 3,482

Re: What do you think?

Hmmm, why not try the case for different colored balls too?

---

"Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense"  - Buddha?

"Data! Data! Data!" he cried impatiently. "I can't make bricks without clay."

bobbym

bumpkin

From: Bumpkinland

Registered: 2009-04-12

Posts: 109,606

Re: What do you think?

I have an idea on how we can check our methods. It might show whether the program or your formula was correct.

But first what do you mean by different colored balls?

---

In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.
If it ain't broke, fix it until it is.
Always satisfy the Prime Directive of getting the right answer above all else.

gAr

Member

Registered: 2011-01-09

Posts: 3,482

Re: What do you think?

I mean my case 4 in the explanation.
All boxes have different colored balls -

ab,bc,cd,ad;
ab,bd,ac,cd;
ac,bd,bc,ad

where a, b, c, d are 4 colors. I can't find more, can you?

---

"Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense"  - Buddha?

"Data! Data! Data!" he cried impatiently. "I can't make bricks without clay."

bobbym

bumpkin

From: Bumpkinland

Registered: 2009-04-12

Posts: 109,606

Re: What do you think?

Hi;

I think that is correct. We both agreed there.

Bear with me for a second. It sometimes helps to solve a smaller problem that is similar to the one we are working on. One so small we can check by counting!

If there were only 6 balls of 3 different colors and 3 different boxes to put them in what do you calculate is the total number of ways by your method?

---

In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.
If it ain't broke, fix it until it is.
Always satisfy the Prime Directive of getting the right answer above all else.

gAr

Member

Registered: 2011-01-09

Posts: 3,482

Re: What do you think?

Hi,

Sorry for the delay.
For 3 boxes and 6 balls:

---

"Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense"  - Buddha?

"Data! Data! Data!" he cried impatiently. "I can't make bricks without clay."

bobbym

bumpkin

From: Bumpkinland

Registered: 2009-04-12

Posts: 109,606

Re: What do you think?

That is correct. Then you have 21 total ways just like the program says too. I do not understand then why there is a difference for the 8 balls, maybe the program is wrong?

I will check it. Just out of curiosity what do you get for 10 balls 5 different colors and 5 different boxes?

---

In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.
If it ain't broke, fix it until it is.
Always satisfy the Prime Directive of getting the right answer above all else.

gAr

Member

Registered: 2011-01-09

Posts: 3,482

Re: What do you think?

Okay.
10 balls may be big to consider all the cases.
I'll see if I can.

---

"Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense"  - Buddha?

"Data! Data! Data!" he cried impatiently. "I can't make bricks without clay."

bobbym

bumpkin

From: Bumpkinland

Registered: 2009-04-12

Posts: 109,606

Re: What do you think?

Hi gAr;

Just if you can. If not it is okay.

---

In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.
If it ain't broke, fix it until it is.
Always satisfy the Prime Directive of getting the right answer above all else.

gAr

Member

Registered: 2011-01-09

Posts: 3,482

Re: What do you think?

Hi bobbym,

I get this probability for 5 different colored balls:

I wonder what might be the limiting probability.

Last edited by gAr (2011-05-02 04:34:41)

---

"Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense"  - Buddha?

"Data! Data! Data!" he cried impatiently. "I can't make bricks without clay."

gAr

Member

Registered: 2011-01-09

Posts: 3,482

Re: What do you think?

And for 6 colors:

---

"Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense"  - Buddha?

"Data! Data! Data!" he cried impatiently. "I can't make bricks without clay."

bobbym

bumpkin

From: Bumpkinland

Registered: 2009-04-12

Posts: 109,606

Re: What do you think?

Hi gAr;

Thanks for providing that.

---

In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.
If it ain't broke, fix it until it is.
Always satisfy the Prime Directive of getting the right answer above all else.

gAr

Member

Registered: 2011-01-09

Posts: 3,482

Re: What do you think?

Hi bobbym,

Got anything new?

For all balls in the boxes to be of different colors, I believe it's half of the number of cyclic permutations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclic_permutation , definition 2), which is |stirling_number1(n,1)|/2 or (n-1)!/2

---

"Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense"  - Buddha?

"Data! Data! Data!" he cried impatiently. "I can't make bricks without clay."

bobbym

bumpkin

From: Bumpkinland

Registered: 2009-04-12

Posts: 109,606

Re: What do you think?

Hi gAr;

I have some new info, as soon as I can complete it, I will post it. Right now I will be busy with the two other posters. I know our problem was first and is more interesting and important. I apologize but they really need immediate help.

---

In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.
If it ain't broke, fix it until it is.
Always satisfy the Prime Directive of getting the right answer above all else.

gAr

Member

Registered: 2011-01-09

Posts: 3,482

Re: What do you think?

Ok, not a problem.
I understand.

---

"Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense"  - Buddha?

"Data! Data! Data!" he cried impatiently. "I can't make bricks without clay."

bobbym

bumpkin

From: Bumpkinland

Registered: 2009-04-12

Posts: 109,606

Re: What do you think?

Very hectic, this time of year. People just never learn that cramming is not a good idea.

---

In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.
If it ain't broke, fix it until it is.
Always satisfy the Prime Directive of getting the right answer above all else.

gAr

Member

Registered: 2011-01-09

Posts: 3,482

Re: What do you think?

Yes, interest and love for the subject is more important than fear of exams!

But the system doesn't work that way.

---

"Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense"  - Buddha?

"Data! Data! Data!" he cried impatiently. "I can't make bricks without clay."

bobbym

bumpkin

From: Bumpkinland

Registered: 2009-04-12

Posts: 109,606

Re: What do you think?

It is hard to get people to understand that if you know your subject then there is no fear!

Before I posted the question here I sent it to an expert. His answer does not agree with either of ours. He agrees with A's answer of 61 / 120. I am currently challenging his answer.

---

In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.
If it ain't broke, fix it until it is.
Always satisfy the Prime Directive of getting the right answer above all else.

gAr

Member

Registered: 2011-01-09

Posts: 3,482

Re: What do you think?

Hmmm,
I don't believe that answer. It can't be even close to 50%.
The smallest case of 2 boxes yields 1/3, for 3 boxes 2/7. So I believe it can only decrease!

---

"Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense"  - Buddha?

"Data! Data! Data!" he cried impatiently. "I can't make bricks without clay."

bobbym

bumpkin

From: Bumpkinland

Registered: 2009-04-12

Posts: 109,606

Re: What do you think?

I am preparing the reply to him right now. I too think his answer is not correct but I will wait to see what he says.

---

In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.
If it ain't broke, fix it until it is.
Always satisfy the Prime Directive of getting the right answer above all else.

gAr

Member

Registered: 2011-01-09

Posts: 3,482

Re: What do you think?

Okay.

---

"Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense"  - Buddha?

"Data! Data! Data!" he cried impatiently. "I can't make bricks without clay."

bobbym

bumpkin

From: Bumpkinland

Registered: 2009-04-12

Posts: 109,606

Re: What do you think?

I am going to take a little break now. I have not eaten yet.

Then I will send the response to him. With your permission I will use your formulae and my results together to try to persuade him that his results are not possible.

---

In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.
If it ain't broke, fix it until it is.
Always satisfy the Prime Directive of getting the right answer above all else.

gAr

Member

Registered: 2011-01-09

Posts: 3,482

Re: What do you think?

Ok, gladly!

---

"Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense"  - Buddha?

"Data! Data! Data!" he cried impatiently. "I can't make bricks without clay."

bobbym

bumpkin

From: Bumpkinland

Registered: 2009-04-12

Posts: 109,606

Re: What do you think?

Message sent. I included your formula and answer and gave you the credit for finding it. Hopefully we will get a response in a few hours.

---

In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.
If it ain't broke, fix it until it is.
Always satisfy the Prime Directive of getting the right answer above all else.

gAr

Member

Registered: 2011-01-09

Posts: 3,482

Re: What do you think?

Ok.
A formula for total number of configurations would end our problem!

---

"Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense"  - Buddha?

"Data! Data! Data!" he cried impatiently. "I can't make bricks without clay."