INFINITE 0.9 <> 1 PROOF By,Anthony.R.Brown,15/01/07.

Anthony.R.Brown · 2007-02-06 01:46:34

A Quote: from the Burnt! Toaster!

" Why don't we just forfeit... it would be so much easier..."

A.R.B

Thank you Toast! The First sensible Post I have ever seen you put forward!!

Anthony.R.Brown · 2007-02-06 02:05:25

To Maelwys

Quote 00.43.22
"
The main one is your definition of V2. You can't have a number that contains and infinite number of 0s, followed by a 1. Infinite means "never ending". That means that as long as you can put another number at the "end" of the string of numbers, it MUST be another zero "

A.R.B "There is No zero at the end of 0.999999......"

You are Missing the point of what I am saying!

We Cannot actually write down all the 0.9999's

All we know is that it starts 0.1 < 1 There is no reason possible! why at some stage Later!
The missing 0.1 is Add to 0.9

Maelwys
Quote 00.43.22

" Therefor, there is no possible number that could be added to 0.999... to give 1. And THAT, is why 0.999... equals 1, because if there's no possible number that you could add to it to achieve 1, then there's no difference between the two, which means that they're the same number."

A.R.B

We are not trying to find a Number that can be Add to 0.999... to give 1. we already know 0.999.. will always have it missing! and that's fine!

As I have already said " I am Quite Happy Knowing there is a Number Infinitely Smaller than 1

Maelwys · 2007-02-06 02:22:30

Anthony.R.Brown wrote:

To Maelwys
Quote 00.43.22
"
The main one is your definition of V2. You can't have a number that contains and infinite number of 0s, followed by a 1. Infinite means "never ending". That means that as long as you can put another number at the "end" of the string of numbers, it MUST be another zero "
A.R.B "There is No zero at the end of 0.999999......"

I wasn't referring to 0.999... I was referring to your definition of V2 which you said was an infinite string of 0's, with a 1 at the end, which as I said is impossible.

Anthony.R.Brown wrote:

You are Missing the point of what I am saying!
We Cannot actually write down all the 0.9999's

We don't have to actually write them all down, we just have to accept that the 9's will continue forever.

Anthony.R.Brown wrote:

All we know is that it starts 0.1 < 1 There is no reason possible! why at some stage Later!
The missing 0.1 is Add to 0.9

Okay then, I agree, you're completely right, 0.9 is definitely 0.1 less than 1 and not equal to 1. Unfortunately you can't solve a number equality just by looking at the first couple digits of the number, especially not when it's infinitely long. You have to consider the entire number.

Anthony.R.Brown wrote:

" Therefor, there is no possible number that could be added to 0.999... to give 1. And THAT, is why 0.999... equals 1, because if there's no possible number that you could add to it to achieve 1, then there's no difference between the two, which means that they're the same number."
A.R.B
We are not trying to find a Number that can be Add to 0.999... to give 1. we already know 0.999.. will always have it missing! and that's fine!
As I have already said " I am Quite Happy Knowing there is a Number Infinitely Smaller than 1

But you are trying to find a number that can be added to V1 to give 1, that's exactly what your argument was... that since V2 could be added to V1 to give 1, then V1 wasn't equal to 1. So my counter argument was that since V2 couldn't possibly exist as a number (or if it does, it's equal to 0), then that means V1 must be equal to 1. I know it's completely counterintuitive to say that a number starting with 0. is equal to a number starting with 1., but in this rare case, it's actually true. You just have to stop focusing on the first couple digits of the number and consider the entire thing (which involves wrapping your head around infinite, which is obviously also hard to do).

kylekatarn · 2007-02-06 03:04:03

Dross wrote:

Anthony.R.Brown wrote:
INFINITE 0.9 <> 1 PROOF : CONCLUSION By,Anthony.R.Brown,06/02/07.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
After all the Thoughts! and Arguments! the Solution is really Quite Simple!
V1 = 0.9999999999...." = The 0.9 Value from the Start Onwards! "
V2 = 0.0000000001...." = The < 1 Value from the Start Onwards! "
(a) The Above will always be True! as Calculated in the Equation Below
( V1 + V2 ) = 1
(b) There will always be Two Values from the Start Onwards
(c) Neither of the Individual Values will ever Equal 1
(d) There will always be an Infinite Difference ( V1 <> V2 )
OH! MY! GOD! I see it now! How, oh how could I have been - could we all have been - so UTTERLY stoopid to consider ourselves correct in the face of such blatantly falacious "reasoning" (or so we called it!).
Anthony - I am truly sorry, I owe you the largest debt of gratitude for opening my eyes. Not just to the world... but to the truth.

LOL, this is getting funnier indeed^^;P

Dross · 2007-02-06 03:36:37

Maelwys wrote:

Anthony.R.Brown wrote:
To Maelwys
Quote 00.43.22
"
The main one is your definition of V2. You can't have a number that contains and infinite number of 0s, followed by a 1. Infinite means "never ending". That means that as long as you can put another number at the "end" of the string of numbers, it MUST be another zero "
A.R.B "There is No zero at the end of 0.999999......"
I wasn't referring to 0.999... I was referring to your definition of V2 which you said was an infinite string of 0's, with a 1 at the end, which as I said is impossible.
Anthony.R.Brown wrote:
You are Missing the point of what I am saying!
We Cannot actually write down all the 0.9999's
We don't have to actually write them all down, we just have to accept that the 9's will continue forever.
Anthony.R.Brown wrote:
All we know is that it starts 0.1 < 1 There is no reason possible! why at some stage Later!
The missing 0.1 is Add to 0.9
Okay then, I agree, you're completely right, 0.9 is definitely 0.1 less than 1 and not equal to 1. Unfortunately you can't solve a number equality just by looking at the first couple digits of the number, especially not when it's infinitely long. You have to consider the entire number.
Anthony.R.Brown wrote:
" Therefor, there is no possible number that could be added to 0.999... to give 1. And THAT, is why 0.999... equals 1, because if there's no possible number that you could add to it to achieve 1, then there's no difference between the two, which means that they're the same number."
A.R.B
We are not trying to find a Number that can be Add to 0.999... to give 1. we already know 0.999.. will always have it missing! and that's fine!
As I have already said " I am Quite Happy Knowing there is a Number Infinitely Smaller than 1
But you are trying to find a number that can be added to V1 to give 1, that's exactly what your argument was... that since V2 could be added to V1 to give 1, then V1 wasn't equal to 1. So my counter argument was that since V2 couldn't possibly exist as a number (or if it does, it's equal to 0), then that means V1 must be equal to 1. I know it's completely counterintuitive to say that a number starting with 0. is equal to a number starting with 1., but in this rare case, it's actually true. You just have to stop focusing on the first couple digits of the number and consider the entire thing (which involves wrapping your head around infinite, which is obviously also hard to do).

BUT UR MISSING TE POINT ITS NOT THAT IT'S THE OTHER ONE THAT HE SAID BEFORE WITH N2 <<< B3 BUT ONLY IF YOU DO LI3K 0.999...(INFINITE0.9) + 0.8888888888888888....................................(InFiNiTe0.24 x i) + ...INFINITE THEN YOU GET THAT 1 IS NOT EQUAL TO 2!!!!!!! SO I HAVE PROVED IT IM TEH BEST UR DA WST WS TN MIRUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUunusuallyLargePopadomUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUULE!!!!!!!!111111shift+1shift+1shift+1

EDIT: !

Last edited by Dross (2007-02-06 03:38:03)

kylekatarn · 2007-02-06 03:44:39

Come on, Anthony isn't yet a Believer. It's our job to convert him to the "0.(9) = 0" Revelation:)
lol;)

Last edited by kylekatarn (2007-02-06 03:48:18)

Toast · 2007-02-06 07:53:16

Nice, Maelwys, I especially like your explanation of an infintisimal number.

Zhylliolom · 2007-02-06 08:18:24

Yes, Dross. Now to you other fools,

YOU are the lowest form.
YOU can't procreate alone.
YOU destroyed the village.
YOU destroyed the family.
YOU destroyed childhood.
YOU destroyed naturalism.
YOU don't know the Truth.
YOU pitiful mindless fools,
YOU are educated stupid.
YOU are your own poison.
YOU create your own hell.
YOU must seek (0.9 Infinite "Definition......" ) <> 1 ).

Toast · 2007-02-06 19:34:34

Alrightey then. I'd better get seeking.

MathsIsFun · 2007-02-06 20:22:37

How can I moderate all this, when I don't know what is going on anymore!

Dross · 2007-02-06 21:07:29

MathsIsFun wrote:

How can I moderate all this, when I don't know what is going on anymore!

I'd like to think it's beyond moderation

Anthony.R.Brown · 2007-02-07 02:40:36

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

INFINITE 0.9 <> 1 PROOF : TRUTH TABLE : By,Anthony.R.Brown,07/02/07.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Below V1 = The Infinite 0.9 Sequence. : Below V2 = The < 1 Infinite Difference Sequence.

V1 = ( 0.9 ) + V2 = ( 0.1 ) = 1

V1 = ( 0.99 ) + V2 = ( 0.01 ) = 1

V1 = ( 0.999 ) + V2 = ( 0.001 ) = 1

V1 = ( 0.9999 ) + V2 = ( 0.0001 ) = 1

V1 = ( 0.99999 ) + V2 = ( 0.00001 ) = 1

V1 = ( 0.999999 ) + V2 = ( 0.000001 ) = 1

V1 = ( 0.9999999 ) + V2 = ( 0.0000001 ) = 1

V1 = ( 0.99999999 ) + V2 = ( 0.00000001 ) = 1

V1 = ( 0.999999999 ) + V2 = ( 0.000000001 ) = 1

V1 = ( 0.9999999999 ) + V2 = ( 0.0000000001 ) = 1

The Table above clearly shows no matter how long V1 is! it will always need the algebra + symbol for V1 to equal 1 ( V1 + V2 ) = 1

This proves Infinite 0.9 <> 1 because if ( V1 + V2 ) = 1 is allowed! it will be a contradiction to the term Infinite 0.9.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dross · 2007-02-07 03:10:40

Anthony - thank you so much for finally posting something that makes sense!

(it's completely wrong, though)

Yes, you have demonstrated that the number that is written as zero, a decimal place, and then a finite number of 9's, is not equal to 1. However, our discussion is not about these numbers. I ask you, what is the number that you have to add when the 9's go on without end? Well, we already know (if you don't already, there is a good deal of discussion earlier in the thread) that a number such as 0.0000...0001 (where "..." represents an infinite number of zeroes) is non-sense, so it certainly cannot be that.

If anything, you have further shown (yet again!) that 0.9999... = 1.

kylekatarn · 2007-02-07 03:16:57

no..no... the funniest part is :

Anthony.R.Brown wrote:

( 0.1 ) = 1
( 0.01 ) = 1
( 0.001 ) = 1
( 0.0001 ) = 1
( 0.00001 ) = 1
( 0.000001 ) = 1
( 0.0000001 ) = 1
( 0.00000001 ) = 1
( 0.000000001 ) = 1
( 0.0000000001 ) = 1

I guess Anthony's "curved-bra-ket" operators are very powerfull. Something like this:
( . ) : R ----> {1}
x ----> 1

Last edited by kylekatarn (2007-02-07 03:17:29)

Dross · 2007-02-07 03:40:49

Heh, heh! I think some of us are getting FAR too used ARB's random use of non-sense notation. I think what he meant to write, is something less like:

V1 = ( 0.999999 ) + V2 = ( 0.000001 ) = 1

...and more like...

V1 = ( 0.999999 ) + V2 = 1 (where V2 = 0.000001)

(or at least, that's what I took it as, almost without thinking!)

Now that you've pointed that out, kyle, ARB's post suddenly makes NO sense!!!

Anthony.R.Brown · 2007-02-08 00:23:03

To
kylekatarn & Dross

Don't worry we all detect your Humorous Nervousness! it's always a sign when confronting the Truth!

A.R.B

kylekatarn · 2007-02-08 00:53:44

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/0.999...
* pay close attention to the topics
"Real analysis"
"Skepticism in education"
"In popular culture"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recurring_decimal
* pay close attention to the topics
"Notation"
"Why all repeating or terminating decimals must be rational numbers"

If Wikipedia still does not convince you, I suggest you try Wolfram Science and search on this topics. The site is run by people who really know about Maths.

After these readings I doubt anyone can believe such nonsense as 0.(9) ≠ 1. One thing is not knowing some more advanced stuff like series and limits, that's OK, we all learn that sooner or later. Another one is denying what the entire world is telling us.

Believe me, one day you will find 0.(9) = 1 so natural as 1 = 1

Last edited by kylekatarn (2007-02-08 01:31:28)

Dross · 2007-02-08 01:49:02

Anthony.R.Brown wrote:

Don't worry we all detect your Humorous Nervousness! it's always a sign when confronting the Truth!

Don't worry, we all detect your desperation! It is evident in the fact that you avoid the points you don't want to talk about, don't answer questions which would otherwise prove you wrong, and keep starting new threads in the vain hope that saying it over and over again will either make it true, or just make us believe.

And all because you're not big enough to admit when you're wrong.

Again, yet another question that I asked in a post above:

I ask you, what is the number that you have to add when the 9's go on without end?

Please answer it, bearing in mind that 0.0000...0001 is not an actual number.

kylekatarn · 2007-02-08 01:52:52

Dross wrote:

Anthony.R.Brown wrote:
Don't worry we all detect your Humorous Nervousness! it's always a sign when confronting the Truth!
Don't worry, we all detect your desperation! It is evident in the fact that you avoid the points you don't want to talk about, don't answer questions which would otherwise prove you wrong, and keep starting new threads in the vain hope that saying it over and over again will either make it true, or just make us believe.
And all because you're not big enough to admit when you're wrong.
Again, yet another question that I asked in a post above:
I ask you, what is the number that you have to add when the 9's go on without end?
Please answer it, bearing in mind that 0.0000...0001 is not an actual number.

I bet he will say something like "N4 - V564 < XZ<L^OL = 1.000000000000000...01 therefore V2-G^p < 1 !!!!! AHHH!! 0.99999.. = B +1 so Yes, The Truth!

Dross · 2007-02-08 01:55:47

I bet he will say something like "N4 - V564 < XZ<L^OL = 1.000000000000000...01 therefore V2-G^p < 1 !!!!! AHHH!! 0.99999.. = B +1 so Yes, The Truth!

Well, that's assuming he even tries to answer it.

Actually, now I'm assuming he'll even read it! Not garunteed to happen at all - as we all know, ARB is so skilled he can reply to posts without even taking any note what it actually said!

mathsyperson · 2007-02-08 03:18:55

Surely 0.000...1 is no less of an actual number than 0.999... is?
It's just that it also happens to equal 0, just like 0.999... = 1.

luca-deltodesco · 2007-02-08 08:33:39

i stick with the: how can you put a number at the end of a set of numbers, for which has no end.

Anthony.R.Brown · 2007-02-09 01:21:00

1 - 0.9 = 0.1 " Notice this is a number! with a 1 on the end " " If it's not? then funny if you add " 0.1 to 0.9 you get 1

1 - 0.99 = 0.01 " Notice this is a number! with a 1 on the end " " If it's not? then funny! if you add " 0.01 to 0.99 you get 1

1 - 0.999 = 0.001 " Notice this is a number! with a 1 on the end " " If it's not? then funny! if you add " 0.001 to 0.999 you get 1

The Above is Only a Small sample from the Start Onwards! But I can Assure you! is Infinitely possible!

Because 1 - ( Another Number < 1 ) Will always have an Infinite Difference!!!

P.s the 1 "at the End!" and the 9 "at the End!" is a term to decribe! at the End of an Infinite Sequence! for as far as we have Calculated! and can see on paper!
We all know it's not an actual End!! but in the Above three examples,we can see them at the End Three Times!!

Maelwys · 2007-02-09 01:58:25

Anthony.R.Brown wrote:

1 - 0.9 = 0.1 " Notice this is a number! with a 1 on the end " " If it's not? then funny if you add " 0.1 to 0.9 you get 1
1 - 0.99 = 0.01 " Notice this is a number! with a 1 on the end " " If it's not? then funny! if you add " 0.01 to 0.99 you get 1
1 - 0.999 = 0.001 " Notice this is a number! with a 1 on the end " " If it's not? then funny! if you add " 0.001 to 0.999 you get 1
The Above is Only a Small sample from the Start Onwards! But I can Assure you! is Infinitely possible!
Because 1 - ( Another Number < 1 ) Will always have an Infinite Difference!!!
P.s the 1 "at the End!" and the 9 "at the End!" is a term to decribe! at the End of an Infinite Sequence! for as far as we have Calculated! and can see on paper!
We all know it's not an actual End!! but in the Above three examples,we can see them at the End Three Times!!

:I agree with your first three statements. All of those numbers do add together to get 1. Your fourth statement however ("The Above is Only a Small sample from the Start Onwards! But I can Assure you! is Infinitely possible!") is a fallacy. Your pattern holds for every number of a finite series only. Any defined finite number approaching infinite, that is <1 will have another number defining the difference between the first number and 1. However, infinite numbers are a special case where this pattern doesn't apply. I also have a problem with your first statement ("Because 1 - ( Another Number < 1 ) Will always have an Infinite Difference!!!"). Any 1 - (another number < 1) will always have a finite difference, that much is true. However again a/Infinitely repeating decimals are special, and so must be defined specially. And b/You're "proving" that 0.999... is less than 1 by saying "1 - another number < 1 has a difference, so since 0.999... is < 1, there must be a difference, so since there's a difference, 0.999... must be < 1". This is circular logic, because you're starting out by assuming your proof is correct, and then using that assumption to prove that it is correct. Finally, in response to your PS, again you can't "describe the end of an infinite sequence" because by the very definition of "infinite" ("Boundless, endless, without end or limits, uncountable, innumerable"; from the wiktionary article on infinite) there IS no end. Again, I strongly suggest you read the wikipedia article on "infinite" because the main problem here seems to be that you don't properly understand that the concept of infinite isn't "a really big number" but it is "an endlessly big number". Hopefully reading the article will help you understand that infinitely long decimal numbers must be handled differently than finitely long decimal numbers, and not all the same rules apply when you're adding or subtracting them.

kylekatarn · 2007-02-09 08:48:05

Anthony.R.Brown wrote:

1 - 0.9 = 0.1 " Notice this is a number! with a 1 on the end " " If it's not? then funny if you add " 0.1 to 0.9 you get 1
1 - 0.99 = 0.01 " Notice this is a number! with a 1 on the end " " If it's not? then funny! if you add " 0.01 to 0.99 you get 1
1 - 0.999 = 0.001 " Notice this is a number! with a 1 on the end " " If it's not? then funny! if you add " 0.001 to 0.999 you get 1
The Above is Only a Small sample from the Start Onwards! But I can Assure you! is Infinitely possible!
Because 1 - ( Another Number < 1 ) Will always have an Infinite Difference!!!
P.s the 1 "at the End!" and the 9 "at the End!" is a term to decribe! at the End of an Infinite Sequence! for as far as we have Calculated! and can see on paper!
We all know it's not an actual End!! but in the Above three examples,we can see them at the End Three Times!!

Why do you keep capitalizing the first letter of some words? Are you trying to sound "Biblical" or something?:/

*NOTE*: You still haven't shown that 0.(9) ≠ 1 using valid arguments/proof.

Math Is Fun Forum

#101 2007-02-06 01:46:34

Re: INFINITE 0.9 <> 1 PROOF By,Anthony.R.Brown,15/01/07.

#102 2007-02-06 02:05:25

Re: INFINITE 0.9 <> 1 PROOF By,Anthony.R.Brown,15/01/07.

#103 2007-02-06 02:22:30

Re: INFINITE 0.9 <> 1 PROOF By,Anthony.R.Brown,15/01/07.

#104 2007-02-06 03:04:03

Re: INFINITE 0.9 <> 1 PROOF By,Anthony.R.Brown,15/01/07.

#105 2007-02-06 03:36:37

Re: INFINITE 0.9 <> 1 PROOF By,Anthony.R.Brown,15/01/07.

#106 2007-02-06 03:44:39

Re: INFINITE 0.9 <> 1 PROOF By,Anthony.R.Brown,15/01/07.

#107 2007-02-06 07:53:16

Re: INFINITE 0.9 <> 1 PROOF By,Anthony.R.Brown,15/01/07.

#108 2007-02-06 08:18:24

Re: INFINITE 0.9 <> 1 PROOF By,Anthony.R.Brown,15/01/07.

#109 2007-02-06 19:34:34

Re: INFINITE 0.9 <> 1 PROOF By,Anthony.R.Brown,15/01/07.

#110 2007-02-06 20:22:37

Re: INFINITE 0.9 <> 1 PROOF By,Anthony.R.Brown,15/01/07.

#111 2007-02-06 21:07:29

Re: INFINITE 0.9 <> 1 PROOF By,Anthony.R.Brown,15/01/07.

#112 2007-02-07 02:40:36

Re: INFINITE 0.9 <> 1 PROOF By,Anthony.R.Brown,15/01/07.

#113 2007-02-07 03:10:40

Re: INFINITE 0.9 <> 1 PROOF By,Anthony.R.Brown,15/01/07.

#114 2007-02-07 03:16:57

Re: INFINITE 0.9 <> 1 PROOF By,Anthony.R.Brown,15/01/07.

#115 2007-02-07 03:40:49

Re: INFINITE 0.9 <> 1 PROOF By,Anthony.R.Brown,15/01/07.

#116 2007-02-08 00:23:03

Re: INFINITE 0.9 <> 1 PROOF By,Anthony.R.Brown,15/01/07.

#117 2007-02-08 00:53:44

Re: INFINITE 0.9 <> 1 PROOF By,Anthony.R.Brown,15/01/07.

#118 2007-02-08 01:49:02

Re: INFINITE 0.9 <> 1 PROOF By,Anthony.R.Brown,15/01/07.

#119 2007-02-08 01:52:52

Re: INFINITE 0.9 <> 1 PROOF By,Anthony.R.Brown,15/01/07.

#120 2007-02-08 01:55:47

Re: INFINITE 0.9 <> 1 PROOF By,Anthony.R.Brown,15/01/07.

#121 2007-02-08 03:18:55

Re: INFINITE 0.9 <> 1 PROOF By,Anthony.R.Brown,15/01/07.

#122 2007-02-08 08:33:39

Re: INFINITE 0.9 <> 1 PROOF By,Anthony.R.Brown,15/01/07.

#123 2007-02-09 01:21:00

Re: INFINITE 0.9 <> 1 PROOF By,Anthony.R.Brown,15/01/07.

#124 2007-02-09 01:58:25

Re: INFINITE 0.9 <> 1 PROOF By,Anthony.R.Brown,15/01/07.

#125 2007-02-09 08:48:05

Re: INFINITE 0.9 <> 1 PROOF By,Anthony.R.Brown,15/01/07.

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