Religion with science

G_Einstein · 2008-10-09 00:10:03

What do you think all about religion(religions)???-I mean monotheistic religion,not polytheistic
To be more precis,the "link" between religion and sciences???

Do you think that what the religions says about the creation of the world is true????

MathsIsFun · 2008-10-09 08:41:01

I think it is best for Science and Religion to look after their own areas ... !

Chewy · 2008-10-09 10:34:28

I agree with MathsIsFun.

But, I sometimes wonder if "God", "Allah", or whatever anyone wants to call the particular Higher Power - and if you believe in a Higher Power - I wonder if "he" wanted to give us a sign, as if to say, hey I do exist and here's proof that I exist. Many objects in nature are in the proportion of Phi, which is approximately 1.61518 / 1.

Somewhere in this forum I saw a thread on the subject of phi, and there are many websites that discuss it in detail. It is the symbol that I used for my avatar, obviously. I personally am spiritual but not connected to a parish or anything. People like Isaac Newton can be a great inspiration, because he was an extremely religious man, yet based all his science on facts.

Not that religions can't have facts of their own, it's just that those facts could be percieved as theories to people who don't necessarily believe in those kinds of facts. Newton's (and many other scientists') work was based in fact that was possible to prove, as in his Laws of Gravitation. He used Kepler's theories and built from that, and used undeniable evidence to prove that the Laws of Gravitation are the same laws that workout throughout our universe - something that wasn't just a theory, or religious-based.

Ricky · 2008-10-09 11:01:22

People like Isaac Newton can be a great inspiration, because he was an extremely religious man, yet based all his science on facts.

This is known as compartmentalization. It describes one who is willing to question and look for evidence during investigations of the natural world, but believes that such is not required or warranted for a deity. To my knowledge, this is the only way in which one of religious belief can pursue scientific achievement.

Chewy · 2008-10-09 13:34:29

Yes, Ricky ! I agree, that is a good point. People do not have to choose whether they are going to investigate or explore our world from a strictly religious or scientific way, choosing one over the other, that is. They can do both, but this word "compartmentalization" seems to sum it up. We must keep our beliefs in one compartment, and our scientific mind in another.

I suppose scientists, and the otherwise curious, could contemplate both at any one time, as long as scientific findings are produced on paper that stay true to "pure" science without creating a hypothesis and researching that hypothesis based on religious beliefs.

Chewy · 2008-10-09 13:41:43

G_Einstein wrote:

What do you think all about religion(religions)???-I mean monotheistic religion,not polytheistic
To be more precis,the "link" between religion and sciences???
Do you think that what the religions says about the creation of the world is true????

And to answer the more precise question put forth by G_Einstein, I am not sure how I feel about the whole creation thing. I do feel that the LHC (Large Hadron Collider) machine over in Switzerland will be giving us some insight to how it all began when they finally produce some data. (I started a thread on the LHC, for anyone interested - just know that I am not trying to hijack this thread, just to add to it).

All in all I feel that God or whatever created the universe, but I do not KNOW this, I believe it. It must be difficult for some of today's scientists - as well as past scientists - to keep opinion separate from fact. My hat is definitely off to them

Tigeree · 2008-10-09 18:18:00

Personally I don't believe a word the religions say.
I'm not religious in any way.

But I guess ya believe wot ya believe.

Jai Ganesh · 2008-10-09 18:40:17

I quote Albert Einstein:-
"Religion without Science is lame, Science without Religion is blind."

Although a born Hindu, I do believe in all faiths.
But Hindu religion says the horse-cart of Sun God is ridden by seven horses.
Isn't it more than a coincidence that white light has seven components, VIBGYOR?
Hindu religion says the time of the Gods is quite different from ours, doesn't the theory of relativity prove varying times for different velocities approaching c, the velocity of light?
Once again, I wish to state that I am not the strongest protaganist of the Sanathana Dharma, or the Hindu faith.
I had a Catholic Church right behind my home in Goa, I had my best friend who belonged to Islam religion in my younger days and I got my degree from Jain College.
But the Hindu religion vouches for Transmigration of the soul also known as the theory of Palingenesis. The Hindu religion is different from Christianity and Islam in that there's no Doom's Day or Qayamat. However, Hindu religion is classified into three sects, the Advaita Vedanta, propounded by Adi Sankracharya, the Dwaita propounded by Madhvacharya and Visishtadwaita propouned by Ramanujacharya.

All the faiths on the planet do not instigate violence of any form. Ahimsa or non-violence, in word, thought and deed is the highest form of any religion. Mahatma Gandhi was the embodiment of this principle.

Ricky · 2008-10-09 23:30:53

All the faiths on the planet do not instigate violence of any form.

While this is true, it is also true that many people use religion as an excuse to commit violent acts.

G_Einstein · 2008-10-09 23:43:34

For my part,I always have been more "scientist" than "theolog".
I am a muslim,I believe in Allah,the SUpreme Power ,WHO createtd everything.
I never practiced "rithual" of worshiping Allah till now,but what makes me believe every day more and more in Allah,is the Coran.
I have some friends that are very religoius,and they gave me a Coran to read it,even till now I didn't read it(I read just few parts),and in the Coran,there are many many things that are proved nowdays by science.

Example,in the Coran,Allah say:" We have separated the sky and the ground to make them two different part"-(it's not what exactly what it say,because I dont know the Coran by heart),and if we link with science,the Big Bang theory,as this theory say,the universe(everything in the universe) was "collected" in a "ball" (like black whole) and something happend that it exploded,but Why it exploded,we don't know!!!-and the universe was created

Other proofs,it says that the water of two seas don't "mixed" in each other waters(I'm not so good to express thing in english).

The proof is that example,the Atlantic ocean and the
Mediteranine sea do not "exchange" water.It is scientifically proved that the water in the "border" of them do not "mix",they keep their salinity and do not "mix"

Other proof:
It also say how the fetus is formed,and in the time when the Coran was reveled,no one didn't know how the fetus is formed.

The first word in Coran are "Read,read in the name of your God",which means also that Islam is not against science,actually Islam is pro science,discoveries and other things.

In the Coran it says: "We have created man from clay'"(I'm not sure if its the corect term "clay")
The proof,the human body has the same chimical elements like the ground,and when some one die,we "bury" him into it.

A little explaination,when it says "We",it do not mean that there are more that one God,but it's a sign of respect that Allah used it to say "I".:)

I read a peace of the Coran,that proofs the Einstein relativity theory.
It says: "There they rised the angles and Gabriel(Jibril)-(the most important angel) in a day that last 50 000 years"
(Meharixh,4)

And for those how say that the COran is a man 'creation",here is the answer:How could someone knew the theory of relativity when the Coran was Reveled,when Muhammed(Peace and Mercy upon him) didn't knew to read????????????
Simply,the Coran is the word of Allah,it doesn't contain contradictious elements in it,it is simply the word of Allah,who is perfect in everything.

"He (Allah) coordinates all from the sky to the earth (wich means everything) and then evrything created by Him will return to it in the Day wich by your calculation is 1000 years"

To prove that,engel are created from light,and other beings aren't from light.Light go faster than everything,so from the relativity theory,if you go faster,you slow down the time,so engels travel faster and for a shorter time.

ANother proof from Astronomy and physics.

In the Coran it says: "We have rised the sky with our power and we can do more" (Dharijate,47)
Wich means that Allah created the univers and He is expanding it.
It is prooved by HUBBLE that the universe is expanding every second,and this expanding is a constant phenomenon.

Also Einstein,has "anulated" or "canceled" time and space in his theory.He say: " You can't speak about space without time,and you can speak for time without space.Considering that everything moves,and that everyhting must have it's time...and for as much as everything moves faster,it's time of moving will be reduced in ratio with the time of other movings and it will be slower(shorter) than their time"

I don't remember for now other proofs,but I'll ask a friends that knows by heart the entire Coran,and I'll write the proofs,that all of you could see them.

Last edited by G_Einstein (2008-10-09 23:44:21)

G_Einstein · 2008-10-10 00:43:20

Here is the answer for CHewy.He asked why God do not say "Hey ,I' m here"

(I'm note quite sure if this was the exactly question,but I'll ask again a friend of mine who told me this)
When ALL-LLAH created everything,he asked the sky and the earth "Have you enough power to mantain the words "La ilah il ALL-LLAH"(wich in english means:There isn't other God except ALLAH),the said:"No,they are enormous heavily words" and then Allah asked Adam,and he said "YES".

Herer are some questions that maybe can help you to understand that God exist and HE's saying :I'm here and everywher"

Why humans are the msot "perfect" creatures????
Why are you so "perfect"????
Why all humans are different????
Why everything is so coordinated??????(Planets,stars,everything)
Why everything in the sky and earth works in a perfect way??????
Why have you been chosen to be the perfect creature??????
Why eevery single part of your body is made in a perfect way and for a porpous???????????
How do you live???
Can you live without your spirit(soul or how it is in english)??????
Why human being have the power to changes things????
Why the univers work with the same """rules"""?????????????
Could you imagine yourself without you spirit????
Wouldn't you be just an "object" that is similar to the ground?????
Why do you differ from other animals?????
Why have you the chance to decide if God exist or not????
Why have you the opportunity to decide what is good and what is bad???
WHy 2+2=4 ???????????????????????????????????????????????
Why (for example) wouldn't 2+2=6??????
Why your heart doesn't stop when you want?????????????????
and the most important

Why are you in this world???????????????????????????????????
How many "perfect" thing can not be just a simple coincidence!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

These are maybe some question that you have to ask yourself.

G_Einstein · 2008-10-10 00:51:36

All of you that are interested,can look some debate about the Bible and the Coran,Christianity and Islam,in internet.Just write "Ahmet Deedat" in Google,and you can watch some videos and I think that after looking them,you'll have more clearly ideas about the world and everything.

Ricky · 2008-10-10 03:47:35

Forward: You are reinterpreting the words of the Koran so that they fit the science. This is known as "ad hoc", meaning that you make the interpretations only after you know what is true. This is a technique that many charlatans and frauds use to deceive people. It lowers the Koran down to their level. Don't do that! Don't lower the meaning of a good book by making baseless claims. There are certainly many good things to learn from the Koran, but by stretching your interpretations to the point where they break, you lose all of it's value.

Metaphors are an important literary device, and they are used frequently in historical books. By interpreting them literally and changing their meaning, you lose what actual meaning there is.l

Example,in the Coran,Allah say:" We have separated the sky and the ground to make them two different part"-(it's not what exactly what it say,because I dont know the Coran by heart),and if we link with science,the Big Bang theory,as this theory say,the universe(everything in the universe) was "collected" in a "ball" (like black whole) and something happend that it exploded,but Why it exploded,we don't know!!!-and the universe was created

This seems to be a non sequitur. First off, you have an extremely loose interpretation of the "sky" and "ground" if you are going to equate them with the entire universe. But even if we were to accept such a loose interpretation, the idea of having two things which make up the universe being different is fundamentally against everything physics has been showing in the past century. Physics has been showing that at a fundamental level, everything is exactly the same. For example with energy and matter, or the theories unifying various forces. String theory claims that everything is based upon a single thing. This is the antithesis that the universe has "different parts".

Other proofs,it says that the water of two seas don't "mixed" in each other waters(I'm not so good to express thing in english).
The proof is that example,the Atlantic ocean and the
Mediteranine sea do not "exchange" water.It is scientifically proved that the water in the "border" of them do not "mix",they keep their salinity and do not "mix"

There may be something lost in the translation, but the statement you made is that "seas don't mix in each other waters" is not verified in your example because the water of the Mediterranean sea is never in the water of the Atlantic ocean, and vice-versa.

It also say how the fetus is formed,and in the time when the Coran was reveled,no one didn't know how the fetus is formed.

In the Coran it says: "We have created man from clay'"(I'm not sure if its the corect term "clay")
The proof,the human body has the same chimical elements like the ground,and when some one die,we "bury" him into it.

This is again an extremely loose interpretation. And it has nothing to do with knowing how a fetus forms. If you truly accept this is proof, then I have an invisible robe that you might be interested in buying.

I read a peace of the Coran,that proofs the Einstein relativity theory.
It says: "There they rised the angles and Gabriel(Jibril)-(the most important angel) in a day that last 50 000 years"
(Meharixh,4)
And for those how say that the COran is a man 'creation",here is the answer:How could someone knew the theory of relativity when the Coran was Reveled,when Muhammed(Peace and Mercy upon him) didn't knew to read????????????
Simply,the Coran is the word of Allah,it doesn't contain contradictious elements in it,it is simply the word of Allah,who is perfect in everything.

That doesn't make any sense at all. How does an angle rising have anything to do with Einstein's Relativity?

To prove that,engel are created from light,and other beings aren't from light.Light go faster than everything,so from the relativity theory,if you go faster,you slow down the time,so engels travel faster and for a shorter time.

Not only is the is a complete misunderstanding of relativity, but it is also rather incoherent. Light is made up photons, so are angles made up of photons? What about the graviton? That goes just as fast as the photon.

In the Coran it says: "We have rised the sky with our power and we can do more" (Dharijate,47)
Wich means that Allah created the univers and He is expanding it.
It is prooved by HUBBLE that the universe is expanding every second,and this expanding is a constant phenomenon.

Only if you interpret "sky" to mean "universe", "power" to mean space, and "doing more" to mean expanding. Of course, each one of those interpretations is a rather ridiculous stretch.

Ricky · 2008-10-10 03:53:51

Also, in a similar vein, here is Hundreds of Proofs of God's Existence. Of course, it is satirical (making fun of serious proofs of God's existence). My favorite is #17:

ARGUMENT FROM INTIMIDATION
(1) See this bonfire?
(2) Therefore, God exists.

G_Einstein · 2008-10-10 05:02:42

As I said before Ricky,I do not know how to express things in English.I wroted them as I know,because english is not my native tongue,so I have difficulties to translate some things.

If you want,there is a Koran in english at the msoque where I prayand I can take the parts of the Koran that I've mentioned and to write them here so you will understand it better.

I don't now if you ment that I'm a charlatan,but I just want to say that I'm not a charlatan.

I know how to express the Koran in Albanian,and some peaces that you sad that they make no sence,some are ,as you said,not coorect,beacause as I said before I do not know how to express some terms in english.
But when you said "sky: for universe,in the Koran it says"sky",wich means as you said,and it's correct,it means "universe''.

I do not want that you think that I am a charlatan,but I can't express better.I will write a link where you cand find some parts of the Koran in english in internet.

I took some example with science because when you speake for something,you have to proove it.So that's why I took thing that are prooved by science.But I respect you decision,who wants to believe,can believe,who do not want,simply do not want.
I have no right to say to someone "believe this,believe that"

I will read the Koran in english and I will try to find these peaces that I've mentioned,and I will write them to you,here in this topic.

You didn;nt understaqnd the example with Atlantic Ocean and Mediteranean seaBut I don't know how to expalin it better in english
.
Physics can't explain everything,and as you said,the parts with the "sky" and the "ground"it is in contradiciton with physics theory.You said by your own "theory"(wich may not be true),so there are just theories,not things truly prooved.

The example with angles was something that is related with Relativity theory(as I read about relativity theory).Angel are made from light.But I don't know how to expalin it much better in english.

I am sorry if I have offended you in one or another way,I didnn't meen to offend anyone.Next time I will try to express better thing that I'll write.

But if you are interested to know what the Koran says,you can read one,or just watch some debates of "Ahmet deedat" and I am quite sure that I will understand it because it's in english.

SO next time,I will try to write better,but I just wanted to says some good thing of the Koran,some facts,but as I see,I made some mistakes.

Again,I do not want you to think that I am a charlatan.I jst expressed thing as I know.
But if you want to understand what I truly wanted to say in english,you can just read a Koran.I'm sure that then you will understand what I wanted to say in english,because I know the Koran just in Albanian,not the entire Koran,just few parts.
But I am not against science.In the opposite.
I like science.I love math and physics.They are the best subject that we learn at school.
Math is something that can't be compared with other sciences,because it's the best.And I said at the beginnig of the post with examples.I always have been more "scientist" than "theolog",and I accepted what science prooved.

I have lived in Switzerland for about 10 years,and I know in what do the christians elieve,but it's just that,here in Kosovo,even if we are all muslims,we do not practise "rituals",because we were under serbian regime,and they didn't let our parents and grand-parents practice it.So all parents do not know how to do some "rituals" so know we are in a kind of middle,some of us practice religion and some not,but we all believe in ALLAH.

To prove that I'm not a charlatan,I recomend you to read some parts of the Koran,or to do somehting else.I do not know what to say more about it.
It is your choice to decide.
I made my decision.

I will try to get these parts in english and to wrte them here.But all those things that I've mentioned,in Albanian have sense.I agree that I didn't translated them well.But I can say that the Koran,is a perfect book.

G_Einstein · 2008-10-10 05:13:50

Here is the link where you can fins the Koran in english

http://etext.virginia.edu/koran.html

G_Einstein · 2008-10-10 05:18:55

I woul love to know what do you (Ricky) think about Islam.
Just before you rely,I just want to say that I respect all religions.

Ricky · 2008-10-10 05:39:24

I don't now if you ment that I'm a charlatan,but I just want to say that I'm not a charlatan.

I said you are using the same tactics as charlatans use, namely, to explain things in an ad hoc manner. Interpret that as you wish. Your intentions may be pure, but a man who does something horrible with the best of intentions has still done something horrible.

Now if you can predict a future event or discovery with the Koran, something that is specific and nonobvious, then you're on to something. But I put no value into predicting history, that is far too easy to do.

Physics can't explain everything,and as you said,the parts with the "sky" and the "ground"it is in contradiciton with physics theory.You said by your own "theory"(wich may not be true),so there are just theories,not things truly prooved.

So you proved the existence of Allah with your theories, but theories are not "truly" proved. Do you not see the contradiction?

The example with angles was something that is related with Relativity theory(as I read about relativity theory).Angel are made from light.But I don't know how to expalin it much better in english.

If you're just looking to explain the above idea, then don't worry, I understand fully what you're saying. But I also understand that the above idea has nothing to do with Relativity theory.

But if you are interested to know what the Koran says,you can read one,or just watch some debates of "Ahmet deedat" and I am quite sure that I will understand it because it's in english.

If I had a surplus of time, maybe. Unfortunately I don't, and thus, reading anything more than segments is a bit out of the question.

I am sorry if I have offended you in one or another way,I didnn't meen to offend anyone.Next time I will try to express better thing that I'll write.

I certainly am not offended. Indeed, if I were, then so be it. Pick any topic and you can almost always find someone, somewhere, who is offended when people discuss it. That doesn't mean you shouldn't talk about such things.

G_Einstein · 2008-10-10 05:59:17

Don't worry I am not offended.

As I said before,theories may not be true.

I didn;t say that the existence of Allah is a theory,it's a religion.In albanian we say "Look at you,your body and everything around yoo.Can't you see the wondres of Allah.Just look you body and you will see that you are made by """""""something perfect""""".You are made by Allah.You have thousand of proof in you body that Allah exist"

I do believe in Allah,and something that I've heard from someone gave me more faith.
He said "All of this that you see can not be pure coincidence" (I mean all the things that we see,feel etc.)

In Albanian,the word "religion" is translated in ""besim"(wich means "to believe").
So religion is something for those people who want to believe.
If you were speaking albanian,I could tell you so many things why I believe in Allah,but no in english,because I can translate them in a not coorect way,and you could missunderstand it.

PS.The Koran tells how the world is created and how it will ends.It doesn't predict personal things.

Ricky · 2008-10-10 06:11:26

I didn;t say that the existence of Allah is a theory,it's a religion.

Yet you are trying to prove it?

Just look you body and you will see that you are made by """""""something perfect""""".You are made by Allah.You have thousand of proof in you body that Allah exist"

Then why is my breath hole the same thing I use as my eating hole? This fact alone causes thousands to die every year. Did Allah intend for this?

PS.The Koran tells how the world is created and how it will ends.It doesn't predict personal things.

Yet you think it told us of the theory of Relativity and how deep ocean sea currents work.

G_Einstein · 2008-10-10 06:26:41

Again you are not understanding.
Allah created everything,good and bad.Allah in the Koran say that we are created to worship him,but he let us decide to believe or to not believe in him.
An example.
An proffesor of philosophy asked a student :Do you believe in GOD?
He said: Yes
P-proffessor
S-student

and then the discution between them is:
P-How do you know that GOD exist when you don't see him.
If you can't see him,He don't exist.
S-If it's so,I can simply say that you do not have mind,because we can't see your mind,so you don't have mind!!!

It is not the all discution between them because it a litlle bit long,but these line represent esence of the discution.

G_Einstein · 2008-10-10 06:30:41

The Koran didn't told us the theory of relativity,it mentioned how long is the day...and if you say that physics theories are true,(some of them yes,some not) ,so what the Koran say is true!!!!

Allah gave us the oppurtunity of chossing,(I think I didn't write it well in the previous reply).

How can you expalin that you are living????
What is teh spirit according you????????

Ricky · 2008-10-10 06:39:56

Allah's existence isn't a theory, it's a religion:

I didn;t say that the existence of Allah is a theory,it's a religion.

Then you go on to "prove" the existence of Allah:

Can't you see the wondres of Allah.Just look you body and you will see that you are made by """""""something perfect""""".You are made by Allah.You have thousand of proof in you body that Allah exist"

Not only this, but above you claimed that the body is perfect, then go on to say that it isn't:

Allah created everything,good and bad.

You claim that the Koran predicts the theory of Relativity:

I read a peace of the Coran,that proofs the Einstein relativity theory.
...
And for those how say that the COran is a man 'creation",here is the answer:How could someone knew the theory of relativity when the Coran was Reveled,when Muhammed(Peace and Mercy upon him) didn't knew to read????????????

Then go on to say that it doesn't:

The Koran didn't told us the theory of relativity...

You are contradicting yourself left and right. I think you need to decide what you believe before you try to provide evidence and a rational defense for that belief.

Ricky · 2008-10-10 06:41:34

An proffesor of philosophy asked a student big_smileo you believe in GOD?
He said: Yes
P-proffessor
S-student
and then the discution between them is:
P-How do you know that GOD exist when you don't see him.
If you can't see him,He don't exist.
S-If it's so,I can simply say that you do not have mind,because we can't see your mind,so you don't have mind!!!
It is not the all discution between them because it a litlle bit long,but these line represent esence of the discution.

The above is insulting. If you want to have a discussion, which I assume you do because you are posting on a forum, then have one. But don't pretend to have a discussion with yourself and then declare yourself the victor. That's preaching.

If you wish to have the above discussion with me (or anyone else here), then do so.

G_Einstein · 2008-10-10 06:55:06

I am truly sorry.I didn't want to insult you.
I wasn't talking about you.
It was just an example,in wich you can conlcude that things aren't always as you see them.

Of course I want to have a discution with you(a talk),bevause you have very good question!!!!!!!
It's better for us to close this discution about religion.
You belive in what you belive,and I belive in what I belive.
Let us change the topic.

Have you ever heard of Kosovo??If yes,what do you think about Kosovo?To be more correct,what have you heard about Kosovo???

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Religion with science

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